[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[hondafan37]

Something interesting Pascal Zurlinden confirms twin-turbo V8-powered.

I think that would be interesting to allow the new cars to race one or two races before homologation, obviously without scoring points and excluding Le Mans.
We know that there is no better test than the race.
If this rules was in effect now, we could have had the Glickenhaus in the 6 hours of Spa.

[Spyderman]

Forgive me, but why so much testing?
Spec chassis, Spec Aero-parts, production based engine, Spec Hybrid.
I get that they need to get the mechanization of the "new" team, but more than 1 year for that!?
Some testing is obviously required to make sure all is working correctly together, but its not like they will be testing anything revolutionary (like with the 991)
Any "extra" pace they find will be BoP'ed out.
Reliability- not really an issue as its a production based engine.
Forgive me for not being excited...but this is not exactly my cup of tea.
Ill always be a Porsche supporter, but my interest as a fan may wane.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Forgive me, but why so much testing?
Spec chassis, Spec Aero-parts, production based engine, Spec Hybrid.
I get that they need to get the mechanization of the "new" team, but more than 1 year for that!?
Some testing is obviously required to make sure all is working correctly together, but its not like they will be testing anything revolutionary (like with the 991)
Any "extra" pace they find will be BoP'ed out.
Reliability- not really an issue as its a production based engine.
Forgive me for not being excited...but this is not exactly my cup of tea.
Ill always be a Porsche supporter, but my interest as a fan may wane.

It'll be a spec chassis that's new. It's not like the LMP2 version has been racing for a couple of years already.

Just look at Oreca vs. Ligier and Dallara 2017 LMP2 situation. This should answer your question as to why so much testing.
Oreca was a tried and tested Rebellion chassis with P2 mods. The other two were new. Oreca honed and developed its design before P2 homologation. The other two did not have such a privilege. If Porsche is going to sell as many customer cars as we're being told, they can't afford getting it wrong.

And yes, I totally understand how a Multimatic car with an Audi-sourced engine and a spec hybrid system may not be the most exciting thing for the fans of Porsche, Audi and Lamborghini or whatever set of stickers they'll end up wearing. At least I hope they'll look ok and make up the numbers.
As far as who I'll root form, the VW triplets will be near the bottom the dozen brands represented in Hypercar. Whereas a real Porsche, let alone a Lamborghini, would get me very excited.

[GingerPixel]

If theres one thing fans hate its an overly tested race car!

As a Porsche supporter, I presume you'd also be the one dissapointed if the new cars were plagued with reliabilty issues.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

If theres one thing fans hate its an overly tested race car!

As a Porsche supporter, I presume you'd also be the one dissapointed if the new cars were plagued with reliabilty issues.

Reliability? The engine is production based.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Whereas a real Porsche, ........, would get me very excited.

Agreed...up to a point.
Personally I don't think BoP has any place in Prototype racing, but I'm getting long in the tooth and I'm too "old school".

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Reliability? The engine is production based.

So was the Mazda P2 engine in ALMS days

[Adam43]

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

So was the Mazda P2 engine in ALMS days

Point taken , but how many Cayenne's and Panamera's have you seen broken down on the sides of the roads?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Point taken , but how many Cayenne's and Panamera's have you seen broken down on the sides of the roads?

Probably a lot more than Mazdas, that's for sure. I think you missed my point entirely. Reliability on the road does not equal reliability on the race track. Once you chuck everything away and build a race engine based on the stock block it can be as reliable or as unreliable as anything out there. It's not going to be automatically more reliable. Just cheaper.

As far as I understand VAG is going to derive their engine from the 4.0-liter twin-turbo V8 out of Bentley Continental GT3. For a start, in a prototype it will have to deal with different kind of vibrations (and loads if semi-stressed). And then there's the factor of whatever further changes they'll make to it, including different packaging, exhaust, cooling, and marrying it with KERS system. Every change can potentially screw things up or cause a ripple effect of things that will need to be redesigned as a result.

They're not going to just physically take an engine out of a Cayenne Turbo and bolt it on the back of an LMP2.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Probably a lot more than Mazdas, that's for sure.

You have got to be kidding right? More than 70% of Porsche's ever built are still running

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

I think you missed my point entirely. Reliability on the road does not equal reliability on the race track. Once you chuck everything away and build a race engine based on the stock block it can be as reliable or as unreliable as anything out there. It's not going to be automatically more reliable. Just cheaper.

Not exactly as volatile as a pure bred racing engine, but if you say so, then it must be true.

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

As far as I understand VAG is going to derive their engine from the 4.0-liter twin-turbo V8 out of Bentley Continental GT3.

Where are you getting this information? Can you post a link to this information please?

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

For a start, in a prototype it will have to deal with different kind of vibrations (and loads if semi-stressed). And then there's the factor of whatever further changes they'll make to it, including different packaging, exhaust, cooling, and marrying it with KERS system. Every change can potentially screw things up or cause a ripple effect of things that will need to be redesigned as a result.

Its not the first time this has been done. Remember the Cayenne engined DPI? there was no Porsche direct involvement in that project, but if some private teams can do this, then I think Porsche AG can manage this , especially in the time frame they have given themselves.

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

They're not going to just physically take an engine out of a Cayenne Turbo and bolt it on the back of an LMP2.

Silly me!

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Where are you getting this information? Can you post a link to this information please?

This is not confirmed, but was mentioned separately by John Hindhaugh and Marshall Pruett, the latter called it 'an Audi-sourced V8', I think. But that Bentley GT3 engine is Audi-sourced, as is the Cayenne V8.

Comparing the number of Porsches and Mazdas ever produced still running is not exactly fair, as the latter are often used and abused and not serviced like it's a future collector's car. But my point was the base engine was very reliable, as Mazdas generally are, but the AER racing version was a constant source of headache. Similarly, the previous gen V8 Vantage was not exactly known for being a fire hazard (unlike some Italian exotica), but the early Vantage GT2 cars would grenade themselves on a regular basis due to lack of development and probably some design flaws.

Porsches are reliable precisely because they don't just go, "oh, it's based on a road car engine, what can possibly go wrong? We can do that in 2 months and just homologate it as is, it'll be fine". If they have the luxury of taking as much time as they need and then factor in a huge safety margin in case something goes wrong and needs to be redesigned, that's exactly what they'll do.

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Its not the first time this has been done. Remember the Cayenne engined DPI? there was no Porsche direct involvement in that project, but if some private teams can do this, then I think Porsche AG can manage this , especially in the time frame they have given themselves.

I don't doubt it for a second. I just think they'll want to avoid early homologation, even if it means skipping 2022 debut opportunities.

[Spyderman]

I suspect the engine will be a version of the new Cayenne Turbo GT . Common engine block with the Lamborghini Urus and the Audi RS Q8, but the rest of the engine is developed by each manufacturer.


Anyway, I never said no testing was required. Im just surprised at the amount of time/testing they have set aside for this.

[canaglia]

yes bentley and lambo urus 4L turbo are derivated from the old audi 4L V8, and about the mazda 2L, true is that it derivated from the mzr road engine line, but the road engine wasn't suppossed to push >500hp, that's why despite AER efforts, that engine managed to get really reliable "only" more than 10 years later, even wondering if actually there is still any little part from the road one...
About porsche, the cayenne V8 was used in grand-am by brumos and AXR and it was a private effort made by a company named lozano bros. in a time period where privately tune street engines for racing was still common use (like at example the elan tuned ford gt engines or the riley tuned corvette engine etc...).
Don't know what engine will be used by porsche/audi lmdh, I just hope it will have tons of torque.

[Pandamasque]

I hope it sounds at least as good as the current GT3 one. Those cars will likely make up a huge portion of the Hypercar field, especially in IMSA.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by canaglia

Don't know what engine will be used by porsche/audi lmdh, I just hope it will have tons of torque.

If my prediction is correct, then 850Nm will be available.

[Adam43]

We know what the power curve will look like. For all of the cars.

[Pandamasque]

Does that rule actually apply to LMDh? I was under the impression that LMH performance rules were just for LMH, while LMDh pace and stratification would be managed by more conventional BoP measures, based on lap times.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Does that rule actually apply to LMDh? I was under the impression that LMH performance rules were just for LMH, while LMDh pace and stratification would be managed by more conventional BoP measures, based on lap times.

Motorsport Magazine reported that:

A new Balance of Performance process will be introduced next year for Le Mans Hypercars and will extend to LMDh when the first cars appear in 2022, as part of attempts to ensure close racing.

Article dated Dec 20, updated Jun 21.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Does that rule actually apply to LMDh?

I was wondering that when I wrote it. More just an assumption as it makes sense.

I was under the impression that LMH performance rules were just for LMH, while LMDh pace and stratification would be managed by more conventional BoP measures, based on lap times.

They have the same total power. So at least that keeps them in a ballpark from that perspective. As balancing different power by altering other aspects can be tricky.

If they tried to align the power curve it would help further. As we’ve seen with DP it can still be a pain if not similar. With hybrid and it being the total power it is easier to do.

But I don’t know the plan.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Motorsport Magazine reported that:

A new Balance of Performance process will be introduced next year for Le Mans Hypercars and will extend to LMDh when the first cars appear in 2022, as part of attempts to ensure close racing.

Article dated Dec 20, updated Jun 21.

I do know the plan now. Thanks. Makes sense.

[Spyderman]

I went back to the start of this thread. It was 10 years ago that we got the first news of Porsche's return to LMP1.
Besides being very amused by some of our musings and speculations, one cant help but recalling the excitement that we had. It's palpable as one reads through the thread.
I wish I could conjure up that excitement again.
Good Times!

[Aysedasi]

Yes, I remember it too. It was such a shame that they (and Audi) ran away from the WEC.

[Spyderman]

Agreed! A real shame.
That Porsche/Audi/Toyota era had everything that I needed for my endurance fix.

[Spyderman]

In keeping with the nostalgia theme, I miss Arakis (my nemesis) and my old friends The Badger, Gustavobamba (who had his first child at the start of this thread and that same child will now be 10 years old), andDario911. Also miss gwyllion, who’s posts were always inciteful…..And many others.
They really were good times!