The Merit of T-Cars (formerly Next Best BTCC driver)

[Stephen Green]

Excellent post Tim and welcome to the mad house.

I marshalled the very first T Car round and do remember them being dual control cars back then. I think JP has done a great deal to enhance the image of the series and the grids this year have been the largest I can remember. You could well be right that to change the name for marketing/promotional reasons might be a good move. Why not suggest it to JP, he always listens to ideas?

[Dan Friel]

Perhaps this really harks back to the problem that this country simply has too many classes and needs a clearer structure?

Spot on. But that said, if drivers don't impress in either Formula Renault or F3 (Brit or Euro) do you think F1 teams (and others) really notice?? That has been and still is the traditional route, or maybe it's now changed?

Motorsport is all about money. It's about teams and organising bodies extracting as much money out of hopeful (and mostly deluded) drivers and sponsors as possible. This I don't mind as it funds my hobby at no cost to me! But what I do mind is double standards by governing bodies, and there is just a hint of this with T cars (in my opinion).

[TimCrighton]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

Excellent post Tim and welcome to the mad house.

A VERY wet Castle Combe was the first round! I recall it well! I raced the white #99 car during the 3 race series in '99. And thank you for the welcome

Dan - I agree with your sentiments about too many classes - I feel within single seaters there is still a clearer (although more diluted than historically) career path than once existed (FBMW, FF is now I fear old hat - then moving on to FR - F3 -GP2) - but comparably Saloon cars, and Sports cars suffer in this regard. Perhaps this will be improved by the creation of an LMP3 class but that of course would require a 'uniforming' of the regs that up to now has not been forthcoming. What is sad in all cases that valuable British talent is being lost abroad in pursuit of a clearer 'path'. Both Tom Gaymor and Ryan Lewis will be competing in Formula Atlantic this coming season. The TOCA tour has long stood as the 'logical' path for an aspiring tin top racer as it puts you in the 'right' environment and amongst the teams you are aiming at - unfortunately steep budgets go hand in hand with that and many drivers - myself included, are left in the leading perifery series, like the MINI Challenge. A clearer class structure (by which I mean fewer classes with higher driver numbers) with limited, carefully policed costs and good coverage would ultimately potentially lead, in my belief, to a reduction in 'real' costs as team would have to vye to be more competitive, not simply in terms of 'added value' and technical excellence.

[hometune]

A couple of very interesting posts from Tim Crighton, someone who is clearly able to put his experience in perspective.

Tim, what is your opinion of having to decide wether you see yourself as a single seater, sports car or touring car driver at such an early age? Before the mid 90's it seemed an aspiring driver tried to go as far as possible in single seaters before peaking and moving to a different type of car. Now it seems you have to decide almost before getting behind the wheel of a car at 14. IMO a shame. Also, where would you see yourself today if your career had started twenty years ago? Would it have been easier to progress with a limited budget?

[racer-gal]

Very interesting post tim.

Im sorry as i only read 3/4 of it as i am a teenager and have the attention span of a gibbon!

WOOHOO! teehee thanks andy.
As i must say for you, Andy, Phil and Steve are a VERY nice bunch of people! Easy to talk to and an allround nice family!

What are you doing next year?

Ema

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by racer-gal

Very interesting post tim.

Im sorry as i only read 3/4 of it as i am a teenager and have the attention span of a gibbon!

You got that far, I'm half a century old with the attention span of a puppy, I only got to the second paragraph, I just hope there was nothing bad in it.

[Piglet]

Good post Tim.

Racer-gal - I think I've worked out who your brother is, he's a nice guy with a very supportive Dad. I hope it all works out for him. If I've got it right he's trying to get into Loughborough?

[TimCrighton]

Originally Posted by hometune

Tim, what is your opinion of having to decide wether you see yourself as a single seater, sports car or touring car driver at such an early age? Before the mid 90's it seemed an aspiring driver tried to go as far as possible in single seaters before peaking and moving to a different type of car. Now it seems you have to decide almost before getting behind the wheel of a car at 14. IMO a shame. Also, where would you see yourself today if your career had started twenty years ago? Would it have been easier to progress with a limited budget?

Its a difficult question to answer. The range of Formulae open to a 14/15 year old now is wider than ever and undoubtedly there are more affordable options than others and so that will probably impact the choice of a number of competitors. In my personal opinion T-Cars seems to have paved the way, or opened the door for the creation of more junior series and I'm not sure that is a good thing. At 15 you now have the ability to race in 4 series, and from the start of the calender year in which you are 16 I now understand you can compete in further series, Formula Renault included. This in my opinion pressures drivers in to considering a 'career' path early on. My advice to a youngster looking at the various options open to them would be to take a path that is going to make them the broadest driver possible. Something that is going to teach them to drive a real racing car. Up until even 4 or 5 years ago a lot of the top BTC, WTC and LMS series drivers came from a single seater background - I think that is slowly changing and more drivers and sticking with tin tops but historically I remain convinced that a pure racing car is a single seater and it teaches you to be somewhat more delicate with a car than a tin top - certainly that is true based on my own experience. Sports cars form somewhere of a middle ground in that probably but I would still argue that, and if I was managing a driver I would encourage them to have some degree of single seater experience (I'm 6'4 and 14.5 stone and I still managed to fit in a FF - although it was a squeeze!). Its for this reason that I would, as I have above still choose T-Cars as the leading class in the Tin-Top Junior motorsport ladder.

As to the question regarding career progression. Yes is the basic answer. I can't talk from first hand experience on all of this, and I am quite prepared to stand corrected, but particularly over the past 10-15 years motorsport at a club and national level has becoming increasing professionalised, the running, entry and simple infrastructure costs of racing have meant that it is not as easy to 'talk' your way into a drive, and ultimately money talks. Teams are having to become increasingly commercial and cannot simply afford to look more favourably on a driver simply because they can win in their car. Its a tough call but to see that situation return I think we would need to see great investment in the sport from external factors - and to do that it requires greater exposure. Perhaps a vicous circle but either way a difficult one to call.

Had I started 20 years ago? I'd probably be running a company to pay for my racing! Don't they say: "The only way to make a small fortune in motorsport is to start with a large one"

[hometune]

Originally Posted by TimCrighton

As to the question regarding career progression. Yes is the basic answer.

The answer I feared. I have a feeling as well that at 14 you are limiting your aspirations if you choose to go saloon cars. Or maybe it really is a case now that the budget you can afford limits your aspirations.

Next problem, how do I stretch my miniscule budget to support a junior without stopping racing myself?

[kelvin88]

the problem with these "career ladders" that take you to FIA GT or Touring cars is this; the only garanteed one is to get to Formula one and work your way down!

[rcarr]

Originally Posted by hometune

Next problem, how do I stretch my miniscule budget to support a junior without stopping racing myself?

You don't, you pay for their 1st car, maybe a clubby stockhatch (not SaxMax unless you are comfortably well off) They learn from their mistakes in those formulae, then get them to pay for an upgrade of car or spec of the engine.

I started racing 5 years ago (still been involved for the past 23 years with Dad and the team), if I had the opportunity of t-cars, saxmax or ginettas, my Dad still would have refused to pay for it.

Im happy to be a gentleman driver for the rest of my life, Nurburgring 24hrs and Le Mans are my ambitions and I will drive them, even if I have to remortage my house (when I get 1 and when Im finally out of further education) The Nurburg 24hrs is close, need to get a job then I'll do it!

Its easier being a gentleman driver, fewer pressures and you still have something to do in the meantime and have a job after you turn 40!

[racer-gal]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

how about a jim'll fix it race series after all it does only cost 50p to repair the crashmax paxo's

btw did it not actually rain at brands when i was at oulton a certain persons damn weather prediction came true and it poured it down, you know who you are

haha crashmax paxo's !!!!!!!

made us all laff!!!

and hus that certain person eh?

[TimCrighton]

Originally Posted by hometune

Next problem, how do I stretch my miniscule budget to support a junior without stopping racing myself?

There are ways around it - some series offer quite good levels of coverage, and if you opt to go the tin top route - well infact if you opt to go just about any route I would certainly say that treat it in a commercial manner. Offer him or her what you can, but explain and include them in the financial side of things, its something that I've always done - my Dad used to make me check the invoices when they came in and keep a tally (even if it was just in a note book) of the money that went in and out. I had to sit down and write letters to sponsors - they might not have been the ones that actually got sent out, but I suppose it proved I was going to put in the effort. My advice would definately be teach them the value of money in motorsport early on, and don't let them just think that its there for them to race - they are the obnoxious ones this thread refers to on occasion! Its still something that stands me in good stead now - I find it very difficult to be idle in a pit garage and always want to get in and get my hands dirty, even if its just cleaning the car down or something.

Another option may be consider supporting them in something like saxmax (if that was an option) and then perhaps use the car for say stockhatch/hothatch (I'll confess I'm not too clued up on which it would be eligable for) yourself. That way the capital is minimised but you both get an opportunity to race. You could even do the same with T-Car - the T-Car is eligable for a number of senior classes also as I mentioned above.

You can gain vast experience just having raced a single seater - I believe and attribute it to the purity of the car, you learn how they really work and feel. That could be done in something like Kent FF if budgets were tighter, and thats a car you could both race.

Just some thoughts although I'm sure you've been through most of them already!

If you want any idea of budgets for T-Cars etc - even one off races/tests then you'd be welcome to speak to either myself or my Father (Andrew) who runs Advent and if we can help we will

[Dan Friel]

Surely it's the case that all top line (and non-paying) GT / touring car drivers need top level single seater experience and success?? Anything else doesn't indicate whether they really are the best of the bunch (which can be a rather large pool of drivers). For instance, how many of the WTCC drivers haven't raced a single seater at a decent level? I'd be interested to know..

[Simon Mason]

Whilst all the genuine professional WTCC drivers come from single seater backgrounds some like James Thompson and Peter Terting only raced thier first season in single seaters which doesnt really qualify them as single seater trained drivers in my book.

However, they both come from very wealthy backgrounds so they shot into top line saloon series at a very early age, in effect giving them the single seater level of competition and car set up knowledge combined with natural talent. I know for a fact that BMW won't even consider a factory driver without a good single seater background although that doesnt apply to all the manufacturers as above.

It is not unfeasible for a saloon or sports car only driver to get a professional drive but they would have to substantialy part fund it for a few years first.

[R59]

To add to Simon's points...

Huffy did Formula Vauxhall (the Junior variety) in a Winter Series, and a but of FPA, but that's it. He spent more time racing Wilshere's MGB than anything else I'd say.

I thought Thommo was a filthy muddy rally driver type?

Rob.

[Ian Sowman]

I think Huff also did a main season of FVauxhall (Junior), after it had departed the TOCA package. I seem to remember a collision with Joey Foster in a poorly supported race at Mallory.

[kipper]

Rob Huff did do a full season of Formula Vauxhall Junior in '00 and took the championship. He also did the '00 Formula Palmer Audi Winter Series and the bulk of the '01 Formula Renault season.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by racing59

I thought Thommo was a filthy muddy rally driver type?

Thommo's dad was definately a rallyist. I believe Tommo himself started in rallying and did the odd BRC round in 2002/03. As far as Single Seaters go his last outing was in Formula Vauxhall Jr back in 1992.

[AndyUK]

[QUOTE=racer-gal]
WOOHOO! teehee thanks andy.
What are you doing next year?


Junior Ginetta hopefully with two cars this year Emma,

QUOTE=tim cryghton

I agree with your massive post, T cars are a superb car, without doubt, my boys have driven Freddys car, but the budget is 3 times what it is in Ginetta is, at what ever level you look at it.

I feel that sadly next year the T car grid is looking grim, as most have absconded or became to old. I sincerely hope it succeeds and hope JP can reduce the costs to encourage more drivers to enter.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Dan Friel

Surely it's the case that all top line (and non-paying) GT / touring car drivers need top level single seater experience and success?? Anything else doesn't indicate whether they really are the best of the bunch (which can be a rather large pool of drivers). For instance, how many of the WTCC drivers haven't raced a single seater at a decent level? I'd be interested to know..

Can't think of too many at the moment- at one time though, there were certainly top-level touring car specialists who didn't come from a single-seater background- names like Win Percy and Steve Soper come to mind.

[terence]

Rob Huff was in the fortunate position of his parents remortgaged to get him into BTCC,good of them I thought.

[Al123]

yes but neither film reviewers nor food critics have the right to be agressive ********s. mate ur argueing with 17 year olds over the internet. get a life !!!

[Chris Y]

"mate", you've dug up a thread that hasn't been posted on for over a year just to have a pop at someone. Bit late for that isn't it?

Thread closed.