BTCC Rounds 13, 14 & 15, Thruxton.

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by RS67

Gornall had hit him quite hard, I wouldn't be surprised if he had had flashbacks to his Silverstone start line accident, where doctors had told him he would never walk again.

Maybe if he's going to have flashbacks and react like that then he shouldn't be in a race car? Just a thought. Obviously you're a friend/huge fan of Andy's but you have to agree that whatever defence you come up with isn't really going to cut it. Whatever contact happened beforehand will have been looked at by the stewards before making their decision. I already thought the whole matter had been settled with no further action, was surprised to see differently when I got home.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Doesn't matter what someone else did first. Two wrongs don't make a right. There is NEVER an excuse to retaliate on track. Sort it out in the stewards room after and if it doesn't go your way that's the end of it.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by RS67

Gornall had hit him quite hard, I wouldn't be surprised if he had had flashbacks to his Silverstone start line accident, where doctors had told him he would never walk again.

Oh dear.. Maybe Essex Arena is the place for him

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by RS67

I wouldn't be surprised if he had had flashbacks to his Silverstone start line accident, where doctors had told him he would never walk again.

Sounds like another reason he shouldn’t be on the grid.

[Sodemo]

I really wish that TOCA would stop meddling with the RWD / FWD balance. So they have yet again reduced the boost below 78mph. I am uncertain whether this is just in the “start phase” or whether this is across all engine maps and is in place now for all the time when on track? The thing is one of the strengths of the RWD was coming out of slow corners, so if this is in place now for the duration of the race then it seems harsh.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I am uncertain whether this is just in the “start phase” or whether this is across all engine maps and is in place now for all the time when on track? The thing is one of the strengths of the RWD was coming out of slow corners, so if this is in place now for the duration of the race then it seems harsh.

TOCA supremo Alan Gow explained: "In 2015 we introduced a means of reducing the discrepancy between FWD and RWD starts, given that RWD cars are inherently faster off the line than FWD.

"This involved all RWD cars using a different first gear and reduced power of approximately 6.5% from 0-78mph during the start phase.

"Calculations based on data from the first four events this season has proven that this should be revised.

"From Thruxton this weekend there is no change to the first-gear ratio, but a further reduction of 5% of the power available up to 78mph during the race-start phase.

"For clarity this reduction is only during the 0-78mph start sequence, after which there is no other change to the engine power levels at any time during the race regardless of the car speed.

"The methodology, calculations and validation were carried out by TOCA's independent engine consultant Clive Dopson and Cosworth Electronics."

[crmalcolm]

Incidentally - to highlight why a BTCC driver's complaints should always be taken with a pinch of salt:

FWD opinion - Cammish admits that he will face a difficult task to keep the fast-starting BWMs behind him at the first corner of Sunday’s opening race, and he admits that he would be pleased to take a podium or solid points finish away from the race. “I’m in front of three BMWs – will I be in front come Turn 1? I don’t think anybody will blame me if I’m not, I’ve got to accept that."

RWD opinion - Tom Oliphant: “Plus the boost reduction for rear-wheel-drive cars at the start is creating a dangerous situation with the speed differential that’s been created. [Rory] Butcher came past me and pulled in front before the braking zone – that’s the disparity it’s made. It needs to be looked at.”

Can they both be right and are being passed by other cars into turn one due to the characteristics of the cars in question?

[Sodemo]

I just think they are trying to balance out an inherent design aspect which has long been a trait of FWD and RWD racing. They keep handicapping the RWD runners and there is no quid pro quo return on the FWD cars. OK, so if they handicap the RWD teams up to 78mph again, this time they should reduce the top end boost of the FWD runners. Over the last few years these are the measures that I can remember being thrown at slowing down RWD (forgive me if I have missed any).

- Extra weight added
- Ballast boxes now placed in a less than optimal position
- Boost reduced below a certain speed (again and again)
- 1st gear ratios lengthened
- Ride heights raised
- standard tyre gets harder with every revision, meaning there is almost no drop-off now towards the end of the race.

[Pickles]

Isn't being able to get a better start just an inherent advantage of RWD though? I get that it's all part of 'the show' but sometimes I just wish they'd leave stuff alone and just let the teams and drivers get on with it, regardless of strengths in different cars and whether they're old or new models

[Evantra]

Originally Posted by Pickles

Isn't being able to get a better start just an inherent advantage of RWD though? I get that it's all part of 'the show' but sometimes I just wish they'd leave stuff alone and just let the teams and drivers get on with it, regardless of strengths in different cars and whether they're old or new models

Yes, but they have a lot more advantages than the FWD cars have. Seemed pretty good this weekend, Turkington and Sutton around where you'd expect them to be on a FWD circuit with full ballast. Come Croft, I'm sure they'll still lock out the front row.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Pickles

Isn't being able to get a better start just an inherent advantage of RWD though? I get that it's all part of 'the show' but sometimes I just wish they'd leave stuff alone and just let the teams and drivers get on with it, regardless of strengths in different cars and whether they're old or new models

It is - and regardless of what they do to the rules, there will always be claims that some cars need to be 'pegged back' to keep the racing 'fair'.

If RWD cars were not allowed to enter, then the focus would switch to some other characteristic.
It would be a never-ending descent into a single-make series:

No RWD cars - there would be disagreement between own-brand and TOCA engines.
Everyone with a TOCA engine - there would be a disagreement over aero.
Everyone with the same aero kit - there would be a disagreement over wheelbase.
Everyone with the same drivetrain, engine, aero and wheelbase, you've effectively got a one-make series and BTCC is dead.

[Pickles]

^^^ Good points.

[Tja]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

It is - and regardless of what they do to the rules, there will always be claims that some cars need to be 'pegged back' to keep the racing 'fair'.

If RWD cars were not allowed to enter, then the focus would switch to some other characteristic.
It would be a never-ending descent into a single-make series:

No RWD cars - there would be disagreement between own-brand and TOCA engines.
Everyone with a TOCA engine - there would be a disagreement over aero.
Everyone with the same aero kit - there would be a disagreement over wheelbase.
Everyone with the same drivetrain, engine, aero and wheelbase, you've effectively got a one-make series and BTCC is dead.

All of that is of course very true and it's good that we don't see the constant changes anymore that happened earlier when NGTC and the new engines were introduced. At the same time, it's always a bit of a balancing act to make sure it's as equal as possible because that's just what this set of rules is supposed to be.

In the past the discussion often was that RWD cars would make up places at the start but then lose out again on the opening laps because they would struggle to bring their tyres up to temperature. I think it's fair to say that while they seemed to make up places at starts a lot, they weren't really losing any in the early laps. It wasn't as obvious as it was 5 or so years ago when Collard would just drive past 5 cars before turn 1, but it was still happening.

Just from the first weekend with these new adjustment to the starts, it looks as though it has evened up the whole field better. Then again, it may be more interesting in the last few meetings when track temperatures will be lower, whether we'll see the RWD cars struggling a bit more.

[Northern Monkey]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I really wish that TOCA would stop meddling with the RWD / FWD balance. So they have yet again reduced the boost below 78mph. I am uncertain whether this is just in the “start phase” or whether this is across all engine maps and is in place now for all the time when on track? The thing is one of the strengths of the RWD was coming out of slow corners, so if this is in place now for the duration of the race then it seems harsh.

Start phase only

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by Pickles

Isn't being able to get a better start just an inherent advantage of RWD though? I get that it's all part of 'the show' but sometimes I just wish they'd leave stuff alone and just let the teams and drivers get on with it, regardless of strengths in different cars and whether they're old or new models

Then just compare cheque books at the start of the season to work out the championship and save a lot of bother.

[Alfisti]

When the whole "but their car is better than our car" rot gets trotted out by FWD drivers year in year out I think one thing and one thing only - shut up, get your budget in order and talk to Dick. Or Mr Moffat. Or indeed, start up a team and develop a RWD race car.

When I think of BTCC success the Honda Civic and BMW 1's and 3's are the cars that come to mind from the last decade. I think one of these is that utterly dreadful FWD stuff...

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Evantra

Yes, but they have a lot more advantages than the FWD cars have. Seemed pretty good this weekend, Turkington and Sutton around where you'd expect them to be on a FWD circuit with full ballast. Come Croft, I'm sure they'll still lock out the front row.

What are the percieved advantages do you see of RWD for the BTCC?

[Pickles]

I have a question. Early 90s. Toyota, Vauxhall, Nissan, Peugeot, BMW etc all pitch up with a mixture of FWD, RWD, different body shapes and engine configurations. What measures were there to keep things even? No ballast, no boost.

[porsche962fan]

ballast was used for RWD and then later 4WD parity

but this were done by the FIA mostly periodocal and most championships obliged

[Pickles]

Originally Posted by porsche962fan

ballast was used for RWD and then later 4WD parity

Yea I knew the Audis got hit with ballast but didn't realise the RWDs were as well 👍 or maybe I did and just forgot 😂 cheers

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Pickles

I have a question. Early 90s. Toyota, Vauxhall, Nissan, Peugeot, BMW etc all pitch up with a mixture of FWD, RWD, different body shapes and engine configurations. What measures were there to keep things even? No ballast, no boost.

The overall control measure was the homologation number requirement, alongside a rule set that meant that the race cars had to be very similar to the road car.

Manufacturer influence meant that racing was kept close. If one team had an advantage, the other manufacturers petitioned the series' to tighten things up. The Alfa Aero case being one such example.
The manufacturers funding development meant that they regularly gained or lost compared to each other, and the final influence was that they would leave if they weren't able to compete.

Parity (in part) was maintained by the influence of budgets. Without that, certain teams on the grid would just spend their way to success under the current environment of minimal manufacturer support.

[porsche962fan]

Originally Posted by Pickles

Yea I knew the Audis got hit with ballast but didn't realise the RWDs were as well �� or maybe I did and just forgot �� cheers

ballast was used a lot for the RWD mostly BMW , for exapmple after a series of bad results in early 1995 races BMW got a 30kg reduction across the board

the clever bit was by Audi, since they were forced with more ballast from the start they decided to put the weight in rigidity which resulted in side by side contacts the Audi's would usually prevail

[codename_47]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

Then just compare cheque books at the start of the season to work out the championship and save a lot of bother.

No

What you need to ensure quality racing is variables

Different cars with different strengths and weaknesses in different areas of the racing.

If you try to erase all the variables, the cars have the same speeds in the same areas and then you wonder why the racing isn't as good
(Its no coincidence this thread is full of "well, that wasn't as good as usual, probably the track" type comments. If you look at how great a layout thruxton has...nope, it's not the track!)

Also on another note: Paul O Neil, please lay off the smelling salts before races
I know you're in TV and all but we don't need you interrupting the commentary during live races to make jokes about your scally mates nicking the bumpers off minis or going on huge rants about how genuine racing accidents are "not on" just because young drivers might be watching and need an example set for them.

I think he's suffering from Ted Kravitz syndrome of being decent and refreshing when he first started, then he gets some feedback to that extent and starts believing his own hype
Becoming pretty unbarable now I'm afraid.

The worst thing is, ITV seem to love it and encourage him instead of telling him to focus on the damn action in front of him....

[AnnoyedMoose]

What series are there at the moment with no balancing that give quality racing? I can't think of any. I don't think it's correct to say that balancing = dull racing.

BTCC might take it a bit to extremes but the popularity of the series shows it can't be doing that much wrong.

Thruxton is always a bit of a damp squib with the major excitement usually caused by tyre failures.

With the condensed schedule I expect drivers aren't taking risks they would normally as well because they know there is a high chance of them missing a whole event. I've seen that in other series such as Aussie Supercars as well.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Pickles

I already thought the whole matter had been settled with no further action, was surprised to see differently when I got home.

You basically saw the decisions in the wrong order.

The Clerk of the Course excluded Neate from the meeting, which I think is the highest sanction a CoC can impose.

He then referred the matter to the stewards for them to look at further punishments, such as referal to the MSA court.

The stewards decided the Clerk's punishment was sufficient so issued a decision of no further action.