Williams & Toyota DQ'd

[N I Tram]

I'd rather a car finish with brakes a few millimetres outside the wall than finish with failed brakes causing a fatal crash. Taking the constructors points away would've been more than enough - the drivers got little advantage (if any - Ralf's brakes still faded late in the race), and if the brakes were too wide after the race, surely they were before it? Parc Ferme shoudl weed out illegal cars and push their drivers to the back of the grid.

[Kicking-back]

NI Tram - the actual brakes were not illegal.

The brake ducts were mounted in the wrong position by a few millimetres - thus breaking the rules.

[N I Tram]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
NI Tram - the actual brakes were not illegal.

The brake ducts were mounted in the wrong position by a few millimetres - thus breaking the rules.

My mistake, but it doesn't clear up 3 things:

Was any advantage gained?
Why wasn't it spotted beforehand?
How come 2 teams had the same minute discrepancy at the same track? Did scrutineering get tougher because brakes are prrcieved to be a big issue here?

[Kicking-back]

It's unlikely any advantage was gained.

It wasn't spotted beforehand because the cars are scrutineered for legality after the race.

As for it being two teams, coincidence probably.

Toyota say theres was 3mm out due to manufacturing tolerances.

I'm sure all the teams will be extra careful mounting these parts from now on.

[z2252314]

Originally posted by Kicking-back


The brake ducts were mounted in the wrong position by a few millimetres - thus breaking the rules.

Toyota has claimed that they were only out 3mm but Williams havent said a word. In fact, the FIA has not disclosed the extent of the infringement and Williams quickly accepted the Penalty without argument.....Methinks Williams may have pushed the envelope quite a bit here....

[Andrew2001]

That sux. Not a Williams fan myself as such, but I do feel for them. But its a few more points for Kimi and DC. McLaren are comin back. Mark my words.

[gttouring]

the real question rises now why did no other team try this? or why did ferrari not show any significant brake fade?
is it because they are ferrari?
and an interesting comment was made on Speedchnnel about the other teams and the red one. Every team is designing and redesigning and adapting and Chasing ferrari, where ferrari since the arrival of TGF, ferrari has been Evolving their cars to a point of perfection, not switching back and forth from single to twin to single keels, higher nose, lower, wider, baboon style, walrus face, extra cooling gills, outgrowths of aero bits, and mimicry, no wonder it is so hard to cath the red cars, every one seems to be starting from scratch every year, where renault evolved the cars well, and it shows, they even worked with the engine until they scrappe dthe big V style to the more conventional, who knows what they learned from harmonics and balance of such a wide engine that benefits their narrower one.
Evolution rules in F1 not revolutions it seems

[Gt_R]

F1 is so fast paced now, it doesnt give teams the luxury of wasting the first 4 races to "figure out" your car...The car needs to be quick and competitive straight out on it's debut race and the momentum kept all the way to the final race.

It's more than mere coincidence that 2 teams made "honest mistakes" with issues regarding brakes just nicely in time for a track which features heavily on brakes, and one of them subsequently went on to record their best result of the season. I would think it's an attempt (and probably desperate) to push the envelope too far in a bid to be competitive.

And worryingly, why aren't the cars checked after quals/before race as well as after race? Because failure to do so opens the doors to allow an illegal car influence the race results, which i believe is unfair to rival competitors.

But that said, i do feel for the drivers...an afternoon work wasted due to the irresponsibility of the team.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by Gt_R
And worryingly, why aren't the cars checked after quals/before race as well as after race? Because failure to do so opens the doors to allow an illegal car influence the race results, which i believe is unfair to rival competitors.

This is a key point. Surely Parc Ferme should allow for this and make it impossible?

[freud]

I dont quite see any reason for why Sam Michael is being blamed here.

Did Sam Michael know before the race that the brakes were non-FIA compliant?... DEFINITELY

Did he know that his cars could potentially be disqualified?... DEFINITELY

Being the Tech. Director, was he the only person who decided on them being used for the GP?... PROBABLY NOT

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by freud

Did Sam Michael know before the race that the brakes were non-FIA compliant?... DEFINITELY

If you can't prove that Sam Michael can sue you and ten-tenths for libel.

[garcon]

Originally posted by freud
I dont quite see any reason for why Sam Michael is being blamed here.

Did Sam Michael know before the race that the brakes were non-FIA compliant?... DEFINITELY

Did he know that his cars could potentially be disqualified?... DEFINITELY

Being the Tech. Director, was he the only person who decided on them being used for the GP?... PROBABLY NOT

freud, your statements of "fact" are - as usual - nothing but wild speculation. And potentially damaging at that.

I'd be willing to bet that nobody at either Toyota or Williams were aware that their ducts were illegal until the FIA scrutineers spotted it.

I honestly believe this was a genuine mistake borne out of trying to develop improved brake cooling for a notoriously hard braking circuit. That isn't to say they were pushing the envelope in terms of legality, simply that in developing new parts they got their tolerances slightly wrong.

[Marlboro man]

I think it's quite obvious that Williams and Toyota knew what they where doing. At least Williams admits they where wrong and I sure as hell don't believe it was a honest mistake. These kind of 'mistakes' aren't made in F1. Especially not by teams like Williams and Toyota.
Williams had cooling issues earlier this season, they problably knew they wearen't going to see the flag with their normal brake ducts, so they became al little bit creative with the FIA rules.
They gambled and lost.

[Redlake27]

It just seems very sad that the cars sit in parc ferme for 24 hours, unable to be touched by the teams, yet the officials could have used this time to look at the cars then, have announced that the Williams and Toyotas would start from the back of the grid with correct brakes.

[Kicking-back]

Unless anyone has proof that Williams and Toyota did this deliberately they shouldn't make that allegation.

Why would a team knowingly break the rules, when they would also know that would lead to disqualification?

[Gt_R]

Haha...direct this question to Anti-Ferrari critics..i'm sure they can answer you.

In any case, deliberate or not, they were punished rightly and i'm sure there are red faces around, which i believe is enough.

By the next few races, everyone will probably forget about this episode.

It may not be deliberate... but it surely ain't a "honest" mistake

[Marlboro man]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
Unless anyone has proof that Williams and Toyota did this deliberately they shouldn't make that allegation.

Why would a team knowingly break the rules, when they would also know that would lead to disqualification?

That's bull****, if you cheat there's always a chance that you get busted. That's why it's called cheating.
There's a difference between doing someting completely illegal or bend the rules a little bit.
In the second situation you might get away with it.
And if you consider the severe braking problems Williams had earlier this season, it would be highly suspected that they would finish with normal brake duct at all, esspecially not at a heavy braking circuit as Gilles Villeuve.

[Kicking-back]

All those people who suggest this wasn't an honest mistake had better get some proof together because you're libelling the teams involved.

[Super Tourer]

Autosport's take on it.

They are reporting that the ducts on the Willams were 30mm over the maximum width allowed under the regulations, which is considerable and not the odd 1 or 2mm that we probably thought was likely.

Toyota's ducts were believed to be 5mm outside the regs, hence Gascoyne's argument that it was within accepted tolerances, compounded by the measuring issue of calculating the width allowing for wheel camber.

This is why we saw Williams not lodge an appeal, Toyota would have appealed but by the time they had prepared their argument, the deadline had passed.

It's alledged that Williams were experiencing braking problems during Friday practice and knew that the race would be even harder. Sam Michael described it as an "unintentional mistake" and that there was "no performance gain or gain for brake cooling" - in which case you have to wonder why they were fitted.....

[Kicking-back]

I'd assume he means that there was no performance gain over what is allowed by the regulations - because they clearly didn't realise they were outside the regulations.

It was the positioning of the ducts that was illegal, rather than the actual ducts.

[Gt_R]

Well there isn't proof also that it is an "honest" mistake

And furthermore, no circumstances-evidence point to them being unintentional. If it's not intentional/doesn't provide any advantage, then why would a team with such huge reputation not step out and defend themselves? Blow the issue up and let people know they are innocent.... but instead, to accept punishment meekly is highly dubious IMO.

I don't think Williams had a meeting prior to Canada GP and decide "Let's race with illegal ducts"..kinda stupid if you ask me. But (to put it nicely) they know about this "problem". It's just a case of "We have a problem with brakes" and in the process of solving the problem, they pushed the envelope too far and broke the rule.

[Kicking-back]

Which is an honest mistake!

[garcon]

Originally posted by Gt_R
...If it's not intentional/doesn't provide any advantage, then why would a team with such huge reputation not step out and defend themselves? Blow the issue up and let people know they are innocent.... but instead, to accept punishment meekly is highly dubious IMO...

Mate, I trust you won't mind if I dissect that a little...

...forgive me a moment - I've just found an ant in my Aero!!! ...

Where was I? Oh yes. Dissection. Seems appropriate suddenly. Anyway... The FIA rules govern dimensions and technical specifications, not intent. Which means the argument that it was an unintentional mistake (honest or otherwise) does not give grounds for appeal!

FIA: That brake duct contravenes technical regulations.
Willi: Ah. Oops. We didn't mean it to.
FIA: Oh, that's alright then.

See what I mean? Whether intended or not, as soon as the FIA told Williams (or Toyota) that the ducts were illegal, they realised there were no grounds for appeal (barring Toyota's possible argument on tolerances).

Originally posted by Gt_R
...I don't think Williams had a meeting prior to Canada GP and decide "Let's race with illegal ducts"..kinda stupid if you ask me. But (to put it nicely) they know about this "problem". It's just a case of "We have a problem with brakes" and in the process of solving the problem, they pushed the envelope too far and broke the rule.

Which is kinda what me and K-b said!

[Kicking-back]

Thanks, Garcon.

[thebear]

Originally posted by Redlake27
It just seems very sad that the cars sit in parc ferme for 24 hours, unable to be touched by the teams, yet the officials could have used this time to look at the cars then, have announced that the Williams and Toyotas would start from the back of the grid with correct brakes.

Last night Peter Windsor was on WT and answered several questions relating to this incedent. At intitial Scruitineering/Verification/Tech Inspection the cars are checked for a few but not all items in the regulations. Post race examination is more thorough, and the Toyota's ductwork was of the correct dimensions but 5mm off location. Similarly the Williams was properly sized but 30mm away from the specified position.