Best National & Club Racer

[bauble]

I know that there was a thread concerning the 'all time greatest' in the F1 Forum recently, being fairly new here I wondered have we had a similar discussion on purely British National series and Club racing?

If not, why not start nominating and lets get some action going. Give them mods something to get their teeth into.

I bet few would disagree with the inclusion of Gerry Marshall (or would they?)

I'll put up Jim Russell, John Cleland and Dave Baldwin.
Any advances.....?

[Ian Sowman]

Gavin Wills, Simon Davey.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by bauble

I'll put up Jim Russell, John Cleland and Dave Baldwin.
Any advances.....?

I've never heard of the first and last names but would you consider John Cleland a club racer?

[Al Weyman]

Me :-)

[chunterer]

I wouldn't include Cleland, although he got his reputation in club/national series, he obviously is more well known for his 2-litre Touring Car exploits.

I'd put forward Gerry, Whizzo, Tony Trimmer, Peter Baldwin, Tony Lanfranchi, Fluxie, John Brindley.

Or how about Martin Stretton, Mike Schryver,(ok has raced historics on wider stage) and people like that?

There'd be some decent names for such an accolade i'd say.

[Alan Raine]

Gerry Marshall for me is probably at the top. Others that spring to mind who seem to be able to drive the wheels off anything and anywhere are Willie Green, Barrie Williams, Mike Wilds (even though he did a few GP's), Syd Fox - remember The Old Nail, Bob Berridge, Frank Gardner (Club?). Currently Nelson Rowe seems to be putting his Historic FF1600 in places it has no right to be in!

[allenbrown]

Chris Summers, Jim Moore, Robin Darlington, Alan Rollinson, Tony Dean, Andy Barton, Kim Mather, Alo Lawler ...

[D-Type]

Tony Lanfranchi?

[G.Walker]

1) Gerry Marshall

2) John Cleland (thundersaloon era)

3) Martin Stretton

[John Turner]

Some of you may be interested in browsing this old thread; I think it was my first ever thread, and the emphasis was on drivers of historic racing cars but there is plenty of overlap and some names will be very familiar!

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=35597

[simon drabble]

Originally Posted by falcemob

I've never heard of the first and last names but would you consider John Cleland a club racer?

never heard of Jim Russell? He started probably the most famous racing school after he finished racing... obviously not as good a brand name as I thought!!

I think Gerry Marshall, Flux and Tony Lanfranchi (and possibly Sytner) have to be up there - Stretton and Hadfield have both failed in modern cars so I dont think that they can be included in the same level, Whizzo is another contender.
The trouble is that back in the 50's and 60's the F1 drivers also did tin tops etc.. so its difficult to differentiate the two, otherwise you would include Duncan Hamilton etc..

[gfm]

Win Percy. Ahead of any of the above IMHO.

[Al Weyman]

For thoughly nice blokes I would say John Cleland, I shared dinner with him once when he gave away our prizes in the ModProds end of season bash, he would'nt take a penny and considered it an honour, proper geezer. Mind you Patrick Watts did the honours the following year so I will have to include him as well! Gerry was very good but could be a bit of a bully on the track I always thought (sorry fans) bit like Shuey.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by simon drabble

I think Gerry Marshall, Flux and Tony Lanfranchi (and possibly Sytner) have to be up there - Stretton and Hadfield have both failed in modern cars so I dont think that they can be included in the same level, Whizzo is another contender.

That's an interesting one actually simon.

You say Stretts failed in modern cars but he had a crack in average GT2 Porsches a rubbish Lotus GT1 in '97 or '98 so I don't think we got a proper indication of the guy's ability then. He even told me once that the prep of the Lotus was how should we say...dubious, to say the least, and he stopped driving it for fear of hurting himself or others!

It's like Peter Hardman, another amazing pedaller of historics (they both have to be 2 of the top 5 guys in that level at present), who was a quick man in single seaters until he hit money problems.

Hardman was up agaisnt an amazingly strong Formula Ford 1600/2000 and F3 generation that included the likes of Morris Sala, Mo Gugelmin, 'Wal', Martin Donnelly, Julian Bailey, Victor Rosso, Dave Coyne, Gerrit Van Kouwen, Anthony Reid & Tim Davies etc... and he was on a par with them.

[simon drabble]

I am led to believe that whilst Stretton is very quick he is very hard on cars and for that reason I wonder if he would have been able to be competitive over a season - others have flitted more successfully from historics to modern so I dont think he is up there.

Hardman is a different story - a good friend and occassional co driver of mine who has infinitely more talent and knowledge than me in these matters has co driven with Peter Hardman on several occassions and not only rates him highly but says he is a thoroughly nice guy to boot.

Going down the historics route is a tricky one as a hot shoe will look better than perhaps he is given so much of his competition are, like me, gentlemen drivers of capped ability!

However to single some out Schryver, Ollie Bryant, Bill Wykeham, Diffeys, James Shead (had to include him!) and even some posters on this forum from up north!!

[bauble]

An interesting selection, alright, but when someone says they have never heard of Jim Russell!!! Well, I ask you!!!

A lot of names are fairly recent or current drivers and I was tending to think more 'historically' (no pun intended) I was not thinking purely in terms of drivers of historic cars either, but names that have graced the national/club scene over a long period.
In some ways you could include Stirling (sorry Sir) Moss as he raced at all levels in the UK and still does. (I only say this to butter up JT)

As an aside to Simon D, my wifes maiden name was Drabble, we may be related. Shock. Horror.

And who the blazes is Dave Baldwin? Thanks chunterer, I just could not think of his first name when I launched the thread. Peter of course. (bauble loses 5 points)

anybody at the Bentley Drivers next Saturday?

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by bauble

A lot of names are fairly recent or current drivers and I was tending to think more 'historically' (no pun intended) I was not thinking purely in terms of drivers of historic cars either, but names that have graced the national/club scene over a long period.

I agree.

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Chris Summers, Jim Moore, Robin Darlington, Alan Rollinson, Tony Dean, Andy Barton, Kim Mather, Alo Lawler ...

That's why I chose drivers who had excelled at club level but never competed at the very highest levels of motor racing.

Allen

[Alan Morgan]

I think Rick Morris deserves an honourable mention....

[rcarr]

John Fyda, european clubmans champion, scottish clubmans champion, he did get as far as British C2 championship and Thundersports but didn't excell in either of those. Fairly handy in our old Mallock Mk3 and his Lotus 22 in historic formula junior throughout europe. Worth a mention I think!

Will Hoy? Got as far as Le Mans and BTCC, he used to dice with John in the clubmans in the 80s.

[gfm]

Can somebody do a 'vote for' voting thing where you can vote ...

[John Turner]

Not really, John, at this stage. We've already had about 40 names, which is way too big. I think we are trying to cover a very substantial amount of ground here - 40+ years worth of Club and National racing will throw up big numbers! That's about as long as I've been attending motor racing meetings and there are one or two names that even I've never heard of, although Jim Russell is not one of them! If we could break it down into classifications or specific periods, maybe we could try a poll or polls!

[davemorganfan]

Tony Sugden, Jon Fletcher, Vernon Davies, Johnny Blades, Alex Clacher, Ken Bailey .... oh, so many.

I wouldn't be inclined to include Tony Trimmer - super guy, great driver, but he did a bit of F1, didn't he?

[allenbrown]

Trimmer did lots of F1 but never actually qualified for a GP in his six attempts so he's not counted as a F1 driver in the various "bibles". He mainly drove in Shellsport G8 and Aurora.

Johnny Blades was quick. Good addition.

Any way we could wean our 40 down to ten for a vote?

Allen

[bauble]

I saw my first motor race in 1951 on the Isle of Man and my latest one on Sunday at Silverstone, so if I do not recognise a name included here - well no way would I concur with their selection and there are a lot I don't recall hearing.
Call me arrogant, and many do, but I was thinking of much loved household names, of which quite a few have been nominated so far. I think that gfm has a good idea and perhaps, John we should try and set some parameters for different categories. Otherwise I can see blood being spilt - probably mine.

Best National Driver; just flirting with International?

Best Club Racer; Purely club events.

Most Prolific Driver; Appearances and Variety of races?

Best Historic Driver; Mainly Vintage/Historic cars.

Who the Heck is Al Weyman? Or is that Nowayman?

(No offence Al - only kidding.)

[allenbrown]

How about best 1960s (and earlier); best 1970s; best 1980s, best 1990s and best post 2000? Top 2 qualify for the overall poll? Or am I complicating the hell out of a simple question?