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15 Jan 2023, 23:48 (Ref:4140264) | #1176 | ||
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so DTM just becomes the name for a pseudo European GT3 championship?
it just means nothing now. I don't know that it has a place to be. |
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16 Jan 2023, 11:54 (Ref:4140283) | #1177 | |
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DTM is expanding, so it's much more than a German series now. Fair play for them for trying, but how long will it last?
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16 Jan 2023, 13:11 (Ref:4140292) | #1178 | ||
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16 Jan 2023, 13:49 (Ref:4140297) | #1179 | |
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Yes, but they still mainly had German rounds, but it took time to pick up elsewhere. Now they seem to have as many races in other countries and I think that might be a step too far
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16 Jan 2023, 14:36 (Ref:4140302) | #1180 | |||
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Quote:
You do realise that from 2002 onwards (with the exception of 2015) at least 40% of races were held outside of Germany every season? The only reason I make this point is because you described the series as 'expanding [...] it's much more than a German series now' and I am highlighting that it has been that way for over 20 years. When you look at the range of nationalities competing as drivers, IMO it seems right to have a continental reach - don't you think? |
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16 Jan 2023, 18:49 (Ref:4140324) | #1181 | ||
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From the factory projects only Volkswagen left TCR but that was because they quit all forms of motorsport. They had already developed a new version of the TCR Golf. Last season we have seen the debut of the Toyota Corolla TCR. Took already it's first vicotry. Many left for eTCR? Only Alfa Romeo left WTCR for eTCR. Cupra and Hyundai are still in (W)TCR. in 2022 I have seen racing with TCR versions of Alfa Romeo, Audi, Cupra, Fiat, Holden, Honda, Hyundai, Lada, MG, Peugeot, Renault, Subaru, Volkswagen, Lynk & Co and Toyota. |
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17 Jan 2023, 01:22 (Ref:4140349) | #1182 | |||
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on VW, not correct - 7.5 was out a long time before VW pulled out - by which point Mk8 was already around. Audi did revise the RS3 after it was said that only Cupra would continue in TCR. |
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17 Jan 2023, 16:39 (Ref:4140432) | #1183 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
MK8 Golf GTI was launched in the summer of 2020 so it makes sense to start racing with the MK8 Golf GTI TCR in 2021. So your info is not correct. Mayby do some homework before making bold statements (see also the TCR Australia topic). Last edited by FIRE; 17 Jan 2023 at 16:45. |
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17 Jan 2023, 20:15 (Ref:4140453) | #1184 | ||
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Err, your point 100% proves my point.
Mk8 production car was around when VW were pulling out and they've never sold a Mk8 TCR race car, which is why you have a PROTOTYPE in a museum. |
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17 Jan 2023, 23:31 (Ref:4140464) | #1185 | |
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I think the Supercars series will grow now. TCR isn't really enough of a threat, despite it's close racing
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18 Jan 2023, 05:17 (Ref:4140487) | #1186 | |
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18 Jan 2023, 10:10 (Ref:4140508) | #1187 | |
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18 Jan 2023, 10:31 (Ref:4140511) | #1188 | |
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18 Jan 2023, 10:34 (Ref:4140512) | #1189 | |
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19 Jan 2023, 13:00 (Ref:4140635) | #1190 | |
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I disagree. It's still close enough to a standard saloon to me
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19 Jan 2023, 15:06 (Ref:4140656) | #1191 | ||
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The lightweight faux headlights and taillights? The plastic windows? The carbon-fibre body panels? The tubular chassis? The floorpan and firewall made out of flat sheet metal? The rear transaxle? The adjustable double wishbone suspension? The billet uprights? I noticed that even WRC's tubeframe Rally1 cars still use OEM headlights and tailights, and the OEM bonnet and tailgate, though they have obviously diverged a lot from the road cars since the Group A days too. It's almost a little bit of the same "death by a thousand cuts" where they started with World Rally Car rules similar to Project Blueprint where there were a few diversions from the road car but nothing too bad, but then more and more concessions over the years saw the cars having little to no relation to the standard saloon (like the aforementioned lightweight headlights and more & more composite panels -- originally just the front mudguards in '07 IIRC to save the work of rolling the guards, and the outer doorskin only of VE Commodore rear doors with a cut & welded standard rear doorframe). Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 19 Jan 2023 at 15:26. |
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19 Jan 2023, 15:11 (Ref:4140657) | #1192 | ||
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19 Jan 2023, 16:16 (Ref:4140672) | #1193 | |
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Apart from the internals of a Supercar for me Mustang and Camaro are more GT.
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19 Jan 2023, 22:22 (Ref:4140687) | #1194 | |||
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The difference being that in Australia, both the Mustang and the Camaro, in their 1960's guise, were the basis of "Improved Production" regulations that helped grow the popular support for touring car racing that eclipsed the popularity of open wheel racing downunder. |
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20 Jan 2023, 09:59 (Ref:4140705) | #1195 | |
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I don't really get this debating about whether the cars are touring cars or GT or not real touring cars or whatever. Does it really matter that much? Personally, I don't give a damn about plastic windows, carbon-fibre panels, tubular chassis and all of that. The most important thing is that the cars are exciting to watch (way more than TCR for example) and provide good racing. Are they touring cars or GT? Couldn't care less. After all, what is the exact definition of a touring car? For me Supercars are touring cars in this way that they are based on road cars which can be bought in real life, have four seats, resemble the road version of the cars. GT I'd associate more with an endurance, 2-drivers-per-car model, cars based on typical sportscars with 2 seats and so on.
I've got the feeling that the lines are a bit blurred nowadays for instance because of parity measures, cost-cutting measures and also a changing motor industry. Some years ago I'd never believe that a GT car may be based on a four-seat coupe which is more like a coupe version of a saloon car and is hardly comparable with Lambos or Ferraris. But we have M4 GT3, which seems even more touring car-ish than the M6 before him. And it's not inconceivable that in the future we might also have Audi RS5 GT3. Doesn't really matter if Supercars meets all criteria to be a touring car or GT. After all, apart from TCR and BTCC, which are the other 'true' touring car championships? |
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20 Jan 2023, 15:22 (Ref:4140740) | #1196 | ||
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Different cars to what I used to was one of the reason I started liking Supercars. The days with Holden, Ford, Nissan and Volvo were for me the best days. Moving to GT cars like Camaro and Mustang decreases by interest. There are already plenty of GT championships around the world. And having only 2 manufacturers isn't helping either. However I understand the reason for this (and DTM's) move because the car market has changed. And as an European I am not Supercars target. |
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20 Jan 2023, 15:49 (Ref:4140747) | #1197 | ||
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There may be plenty of GT championships in the world but (the way I see it) none of them is similar to Supercars, most rely on GT3 regulations. So even if we perceive Supercars as a GT series (which I don't btw) it's still unique. Yeah, I mean I'm European as well, although Supercars is one of my top fav championships in the world - which of course doesn't mean I can't see the worse sides of it. |
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21 Jan 2023, 22:50 (Ref:4140874) | #1198 | ||
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Quote:
https://www.drive.com.au/news/chevro...-in-australia/ |
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22 Jan 2023, 01:18 (Ref:4140883) | #1199 | ||
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Meantime.. are there any finished cars yet?
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22 Jan 2023, 07:23 (Ref:4140897) | #1200 | |||
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They have just done a lottery to distribute the 1st engines (1 engine per 2 car team at this stage)
Lottery is so engines are random / pot luck and no chance of "team X got a better engine than we did" talk) Other than that apparently the hold up is on the fixed supplier control items which are stalling the builds. Quote:
"Honest update" letter a few days from Erebus outlined the situation https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/01/19...pdate-on-gen3/ |
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