Irish Vees vs Irish FF1600

[Kershaw]

The car Elliot won the Park with is Moores spare car. It is fitted with a Heavey engine. The reason it was not out much is because it was Moores. Not Kens, he just borrowed it that weekend.
The Leinster trophy weekend - oHara went off and cracked the sump in race 1 and consequently dns the second race.
Btw. Ron Cummins owes me 100eu for a bet ... anyone know where he is..

[Nuvolari78]

Last thing i'll say about the engines - time to retire to the hills. This year, at the Phoenix park, Elliott won on Sunday thanks to a great drive, and Moore on Saturday, after a great race with Newsome. But, in terms of engines, Newsome, using a Doherty motor, went almost a full SECOND quicker than Elliot's pole time!! Note, pole time, not the next fastest lap of the race - he probably went a second and a half quicker than that. Apparently the car he drove was Whitty's from last year, that had just been thrown together for the park. Obviously the driver was working pretty good, also, but with just three corners? Must've been pretty fit Donkeys.
A brand new competitive engine for €2,500 - Moore must be kicking himself.....
Regarding rebuilds, i don't know how many times Moore had it rebuilt, but Sammin out qualified him 4 -3 this year, including the very last race Sammin did. Sammin's engine is the same used by Declan Quigley for the past 5 seasons or so, and hasn't been touched, apparently, since July '05........

[Nuvolari78]

Apologies for the hostile reply. I genuinely hope Fomula 5 isn't dead, cos as soon as it's reliable i'm going to get one. Sounded fab in the park. Finnian's car, as far as i know, is still gathering dust in the shed!! The craic we had with that thing...!!!

[Kershaw]

Keno had a misfire for qualifying and the saturday race... John Bowles from UK fixed it for him for sunday, and once in the lead Ken had nothing to prove by driving the ring off it. Remember, win at the slowest possible pace.
Sammins engine pulled a head stud in round 2, so it has been apart this year.
Engines, regardless who built them get faster initially, then go slower... than need rebuilds. Mine get done every year at beginning of season.
Hearty used to send his back mid season for some reason, as does Moore... wonder why?? This must add to the cost of running a car.
And my engines from new cost me 2500euro... really. No messing, no joking.
I remember Heavey built an engine for Moore in 2001, Moore wasnt happy with it, Heavey said give it a good run in, it will come good. Keno saw an opportunity and bought the engine off Moore for half nothing. Keno threw it in his car for 2002. It turned out to be the Kirkistown and International track record holder, that a lot of people said was illegal blah blah. Moore was kicking himself that time alright.

[gio]

Garry's a good peddler alrite but don't forget he came from seventh on the grid. Slipstreams a great thing and can easily gain you a second. Especially when your drafting two or three cars.

Its a debate that will never really be settled but I can't see the point of spending that sort of money on an engine that was designed when the dinosaurs were still about. New guys should know all the options.

[Nuvolari78]

Head stud was apparently a legacy of the roll Sammin had in Mondello in '05. It hadn't been started since. He just screwed in a new stud and away he went. I have a Doherty engine in my car, and i only get it rebuilt at the end of the season. I can detect no difference at any stage, to be honset.
As to why Moore gets his rebuilt do often, i don't know, that's his business. Mind games, more than likely. At the pre season non championship race, he left a rocker cover loose, ran out of oil, and wrecked a brand new engine, so there was one rebuild, anyhow. Not much Damian could do about that one.
Virtually every engine failure i have seen with Doherty engines has been like the above. The real killer is ignition timing. Dan Mulligan got a brand new engine a few seasons ago, and a loose distributor clamp meant that the timing went nuts, and completely fried the engine. No air cooled engine, regardless of state of tune, will tolerate pre ignition. The other killer is incorrect jet sizes, causing the engine to run lean, & overheat. Vee engines are as bulletproof as any when installed & run correctly. You wouldn't believe the amount of people who install engines without cleaning out the oil lines & cooler, then priming before initial start up. Then there are those who attempt to statically time a centrifugal advance distributor. This will only suffice for initial start up, till you use the timing light.
I guess everyone has their own point of view, and has made their car work through one method or another. For me, i KNOW i have as much grunt as anyone, and i KNOW that there will be a queue of people to buy my car when i sell it later next year, because of the engine. Wonder how much that new Leastone Vee is in kit form? With an engine that thing could fly, and it looks deadly.......

[Nuvolari78]

I COMPLETELY agree with you on that. It is ridiculous money to spend for a dinosaur. The same problem exists, to an even greater extent, in Formula Ford. What makes Damian's engines so expensive is the sheer amount of time he puts into not only building them, but also procuring the parts. What really impressed me was last year, when Brian Leader's engine lost oil pressure. The probelm turned out to be a freak cracked gear in an oil pump, apparently, and Leader had done a full season on the engine already. Doherty could have legitimately argued that an oil pump wasn't his doing, etc, but he didn't. A free rebuild, regardless of how many miles the engine had done, as he was certain Leader had installed & run the engine correctly. £3K stg is a lot of money for an engine, but not when you get it all back at selling time. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than shelling out a couple of grand a few times over. If you want to race reliably near or at the top, it just won't depreciate.
Don't get me wrong - i'm not suggesting that every newcomer should buy one - if you're out for the craic, then it just doesn't matter. I'm merely suggesting that, in the medium to long term, buying a car with a Doherty engine, or buying an engine outright will work out cheaper in a competitive scenario.
Newsome started seventh, but what does that have to do with qualifying time???!!!!!!

[Nuvolari78]

Apologies - what i meant by the above was teh fact taht Newsonme's fastest time was set running in second behind Ray Moore, and Elliott ran second behind Newsome for a lot of Sunday's race, so i don't see how slipstreaming could have had anything to do with the time difference.
Regarding the earlier comment of 'winning at the slowest pace', i somehow doubt that anyone would hold back with Garry Newsome bearing down your throat.......

[Nuvolari78]

Here's one - how about changing to bombproof standard Susuki Hayabusa 1300 engines for next season for Formula 5?

[SCOBER11]

Theres a lot of engines and cars been "thrown" together and winning on this thread, very interesting!

Anyone who races near the front or for championships will at some stage get a freshen up mid season as its the cheapest way to stay competitive.

Now off to count out the Millions i need to compete at Brands and Silverstone in my FF1600 for the remainder of the season.

[Nuvolari78]

Sorry - never meant to infer any insult. When i mentioned 'millions', i meant in comparison to Vees......
Love to do ff1600, if only...........

[Kershaw]

In fairness to Doherty, My engine in 2000 sent a rocker clip up into the oil pump and broke a camshaft, and he repaired that for free for me, as he didnt put any gauze on the pickup.
I still standby me earlier comment that there is no/very very little difference in the 2 engines. Its just that Heavey puts as much effort into his engines, and they cost exactly half... after all it is a 'low cost' formula

[275 GTB-4]

in a tiny Stewart Little voice....

Fellas...in Australia the 1600s have not yet matched the fastest 1192s....20-30 years of development for the 1200s coupled with a less than adequate control tyre here means that the winner can come from either category.

[AWR]

Hi guys! New post here.
I have to clear some things up - first, Mr Nuvolari, my car was not 'thrown' together. Gary Newsome's Dad & brother did a stunning job on the bodywork & preparation. The rest was a bit of a hurry alrite - the rear shocks were too short, so i couldn't pull it down with the z bar, and the front was 15mm higher than the front! The brake pedal sank to the floor, thanks to a dodgy union, and when i stripped the box, the 3rd/4th selector fork was in two halves, and still he did that lap, a second quicker than anyone.
I was standing at the first corner watching Gary leading in my car when Moore rejoined heading straight for him. Gary slowed, waving his hands in the air - bearing down on a corner flat out and seeing another Vee heading staright for him, he could hardly be balmed - then Ken overtook between that corner and the next, so to suggest that the incident had nothing to do with the result is nonsense, and i think i can tell the difference between my own car & Ken's. Don't take my word for it, wait for the TV footage.
Imagine what Gary could do next year, with brakes, gears + traction...

[Kershaw]

I strongly disagree with you there. Elliott was leading and at the exact time Moore rejoined, Newsome was challenging down the outside, and Elliott was defending on the inside, but had been leading before that.
Moore then rejoined behind Stapleton... not Newsome. I repeat, Elliott was leading at the time... passed newsome at Furry Glen, and lead through Mountjoy. I know this cos I have Elliotts onboard camera.... . What happned after that is between Moore and Newsome.. Keno was gone at that stage.

bearing down on a corner flat out and seeing another Vee heading staright for him, he could hardly be balmed

Only one thing to say about that - neither Elliott nor Stapleton slowed, maybe they assessed the situation quicker than Newsome did.

Ps, Alan, I thought that car looked spanking ... indeed I thought it was new.

[AWR]

Hi me again. Nuvolari is wrong about Brian Leader. He did not have a DDR engine in '04 when he won the C championship. It was a straight fight between him & John Carey. He got one last year, though, and has been a front runner ever since.
It's a shame Patrick O Dwyer didn't have a 'rocketship' Heavey engine last year, and it's a shame the works Leastone (nice car & v quick pilot) doesn't have one this year, or last year. I won the C last year, but, being the only one with a DDR engine, i got no driver credibility from it whatsoever, nor did i deserve any. The engine, a 1998, was in the car when i bought it. I fitted new bearings, did a valve grind & away i went. There was a huge difference in grunt between Patrick & i, particularly up North. Just look at Mark Horan. He switched to DDR and immediately won three races, and is a front runner - a far cry from last year. I don't agree that DDR is the way to go for new comers - any drivers who have had to fight it out in the C have always gone well - just look at Leader, Horan, Newsome, Hogg, etc etc.
I don't know how much Gary got his DDR for, but as he had the championship tidied up with rounds to spare, i'd say he has the last laugh on that one Ray Moore is yet another example. Look, it's this simple - only once has a non engine builder won the national championship with a DDR engine, and even the engine builders only twice in the last ten years, so it's fairly safe to say that, if you can build & develop your own motor, go ahead. If not, and you want to go for the championship, go DDR.

[AWR]

I don't know about the furry glen, i didn't see it. If i sound like a sore loser, i don't mean to. I hadn't slept in 3 days at that race, & i was grumpier than usual!
I'm not in any way trying to take anything away from Keno - brilliant drive, and i do concede that i was seriously p***ed off after what happened, but you're right, it is between Gary & Ray.
Thanks for the car comment. Have to say your cars looked the dog's b*** this year, and i was delighted to see Dan win it, & congrats on the third, also.

[Kershaw]

Cheers. . Reliability was a big part in it, we had not one mechanical problem (thank to Dad and Brian) and only 1 retirement all year when Dan threw it into the turn 1 gravel trap early on. As for the cars looking lovely, thats all down to Brian... he made full sure of that.
Pat wasnt particularly good at Kirky, he struggled at hairpin and chicane, much the same as my 2 guys this year, but what killed Pat was he only did 7 races, and only finished 4, with 2 crashes and a puncture being the retirements. I would love to get him back out as he has serious potential.
His engine was just as quick as any, he actually went quicker at both circuits than either of my 2 guys this year!!

[Kershaw]

I was just talking to Keno, who ran Moores car this year. Moores' Doherty ran a bearing at the first meeting this year.
When it went for its mid season freshen up, he (Moore) had sent it up cos he reckoned it didnt feel right. Many questioned his decision (me included), but the report back from Doherty was that it wouldnt have lasted another race as i was just about picking up on a bearing.
Lucky him.

[gio]

To my knowledge, Pat Dwyer and the new leastone have rocketship engines. Pat was a rookie and will be the first to tell you that he was not driving the car. As for the new Leastone, its a new car, give em time to sort it out. From what I saw Elliott never got a proper test and was struggling with silly mechanical problems. Maybe Kershaw can confirm this.

Is wrapping up a poxy vee championship really worth remortgaging your house?

Horan's car was a weapon. Garry done an awesome job preparing and winning in that car last and Horan benefitted from that. Where is he now? Struggling just inside top ten. With a DDR.

[Kershaw]

Elliott struggled with it just being a new car. He wasnt used to a car that just handled on rails..,
He will be a serious contender for next year.

[beekay]

My nephew was just watching the Phoenix Park race in question (thanks to Cregors legendary dvds)so i had a gander,Ray Moore rejoined a lap after he pulled off behind Stapleton,who was in third place and well back from Keno who was leading and Newsome who was second.
Newsome does raise his hand on the exit of the corner,why?i don't know cause Moore wasn't even trying to pull onto the track in front of him

[Point-5]

I dunno about crgmichael (the original poster) but all I would take from the previous 4 pages is that I would steer well clear of Vee's.... Not exactly great PR for your class guys!

[Kershaw]

Its a fact of life that Vees is all about engine, and you currently have 2 choices , Doherty or Heavey built.
Heaveys engines cost about 2500 euro (mine was less cos I supplied some parts), and a Doherty is about 3000 sterling...

When I started racing in 1999 I chose vees cos it was going to be relatively cheap (or so I thought) to get to the front, however within 2 races I knew different. If you havent got a doherty, a heavey or an ex-Doherty that has had a rebuild by someone else.. then you will be very unlikely to crack the top 8 or at least the top 6 regularly. And thats when a cheap formula starts to go astray.
I have many guys contacting me about running vees, always banging on about picking up a ``cheap`` car for 4000 odd euro and asking will they be competitive and I always tell them the truth.. NO you wont be. Better to spend 6500 euro on an ex title winning car (heavey sold his 04 title winning car for this, and my C title winning car is for sale at that price too).
My point is, a top engine in Vees can either be dear or cheap... the choice is up to the racers, and if you are racing in a budget class on a BUDGET I think 3000 sterling is a bit rich......especially when considered a UK engine which gets a lot more work done to it is 2600 odd sterling.
An irish vee engine basically just gets balanced with the right parts!!
But if people are willing to pay....

[Draven]

I have finished my first season in Vee (my first season in anything actually).
I could sit here and bang on paragraph after paragraph about how great the class is, but I wont. (pretty good sign that I could though)

What I will do is join the thread and talk breifly about costs.

It doesnt cost as much as you think to have a learing year in FVee, True it's a very expensive game to try and win at, but it doesnt have to be that way from day one.
Here is my number one reminder to everyone thinking of joining the class and worried about costs in their first year, You dont have to do every round if you cant afford it.

In a Nutshell this is the most rewarding experience I think you can get for this sort of money, on and off the track Vee has been a Joy.

And while there seems to be an Irish Vee audience.... My Ex-David Heavey Formula Vee is for sale. (It's the 04 winning car Kershaw mentions above if I@m not mistaken). Selling it cheaper than I bought it because I need the money to be honest. So bargan hunters comence banging down my door!

While I'm here, congratulations to Dan for the C Championship Win, beautiful car well prepared, but not just that, bloody well driven.

Also anyone with any tips on where is good to advertise the car for sale let me know. (obviously if you know of anyone put them in touch and they will get the 10/10ths discount of 5 euro!!)