First hybrid engine at Le Mans?

[Tom908V12]

Hi,


During a press conference at the Geneva Motorshow this week, Peugeot chairman announced the constructor will present this year a new racing prototype with a hybrid-diesel engine !!!


We can speculate whatever we want about what it'll be(no more news have been given about it), but according to L'Equipe mag of today, this would be based on the current 908 and unveiled in june during the 2008 24h of Le Mans week(like they did in 2006 with the engine)

Then it would have its first race on the last round of 2008 LMS(Shanghai)for a full 2009 Le Mans/LMS season...

If all that come true, Peugeot would be the first team to use LMP1 fitted with such engine at Le Mans before Audi and Toyota

[ss_collins]

erm... Panoz ran a Zytek developed hybrid in 1998...

not a diesel though

[Dani Filth]

thought pug had doubts about going to Shanghai

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

thought pug had doubts about going to Shanghai

Funny how ACO said in it's press release back then that they had "high commitment from teams" (regarding the Shangai race) and the next day Peugoet published it's plans and said no to Shangai...

[Satorian]

They probably don't need it as Le Mans ticket, while I can't imagine Peugeot selling a lot of cars there, which would make it worthwhile as marketing exercise.

Can't see the ACO threatening them with an exclusion.

[isynge]

According to the quote below Peugeot taking a 908 or two to Shanghai might dovetail very nicely with corporate strategy...

Originally Posted by Financial Times, 29 Jan 2008

Christian Streiff, Peugeot's chief executive, has identified Eastern Europe, along with South America and China, as a priority market for development as it seeks to capitalise on growth away from its core volume-vehicle business in France and western Europe.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by Tom908V12

Then it would have its first race on the last round of 2008 LMS(Shanghai)for a full 2009 Le Mans/LMS season...

Shanghai is not a LMS race

The 2008 LMP1 rules don't allow for hybrid drive train/KERS. Therefor I find it hard to believe that Peugeot will already race with a hybrid 908 this year.

On top of that they are currently struggling to get to the minimum weight of 900 kg and they want to add some extra batteries and electric motor

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Satorian

They probably don't need it as Le Mans ticket, while I can't imagine Peugeot selling a lot of cars there, which would make it worthwhile as marketing exercise.

Can't see the ACO threatening them with an exclusion.

If they would have given points from that race, that would have surely kept the commitment high...

Originally Posted by gwyllion

The 2008 LMP1 rules don't allow for hybrid drive train/KERS.

Don't know has this been noticed widely here (probably yes), but there's something interesting in the 2008 regs: "the ACO is studying specific rules for LMP1 which will be equipped with a kinetic energy recovery system."

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by deggis

Funny how ACO said in it's press release back then that they had "high commitment from teams" (regarding the Shangai race) and the next day Peugoet published it's plans and said no to Shangai...

Peugeot didnt say no ..... they said that as the Shanghai race was not towards the championship , they would consider their position at a later date .

Sounds reasonable to me ..... but they should support it , imo .

[JAG]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Shanghai is not a LMS race

The 2008 LMP1 rules don't allow for hybrid drive train/KERS. Therefor I find it hard to believe that Peugeot will already race with a hybrid 908 this year.

On top of that they are currently struggling to get to the minimum weight of 900 kg and they want to add some extra batteries and electric motor

I think it's a fair assumption the major manufactuers are aware of/in discussion, with the ACO about major reg changes well before we become aware.

We already know Corvette is working on some kind of '2010' Coupe, while the GT1 engine break surely didn't come out of the blue for Aston Martin, Corvette, even Maserati, if Vitaphone's Lola Maserati Coupe discussion's are to be beleived.

As for the hybrid technology, Zytek now seem to believe it's feasible, and after overcoming the problems with a P1 diesel, I'm sure Peugeot are quite advanced in this area.

In fact someone at Peugeot was discussing 12 months back, on Motors TV, about them moving onto hybrids/alternative fuels at Le Man's, after the diesel engine had been perfected.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by deggis

Don't know has this been noticed widely here (probably yes), but there's something interesting in the 2008 regs: "the ACO is studying specific rules for LMP1 which will be equipped with a kinetic energy recovery system."

Yes, I know.

I was just pointing out that ACO is not in the game of changing rules during the year. So I think that the suggestion that Peugeot will run a hybrid diesel engine this year in the Shanghai race is wishfull thinking.

At the end this year ACO will release revised rules with more diesel limitations (?) and for KERS. So the earliest we will see hybrid petrol and diesel engines is 2009

[Mal]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Yes, I know.

I was just pointing out that ACO is not in the game of changing rules during the year. So I think that the suggestion that Peugeot will run a hybrid diesel engine this year in the Shanghai race is wishfull thinking.

At the end this year ACO will release revised rules with more diesel limitations (?) and for KERS. So the earliest we will see hybrid petrol and diesel engines is 2009

I understand what you are saying but would the ACO really refuse a major French manufacturer if they put in a request? Thinking sideways maybe this is why the Shanghai event is non championship as it would be harder to change the rules if it were. They could use this race to kick off the Asian sereis with revised rules.

[Tom908V12]

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/m...r-2009-le-mans

[deggis]

I hope that makes Toyota jealous enough to join the game...

[1969MGCGTdriver]

Originally Posted by deggis

If they would have given points from that race, that would have surely kept the commitment high...


Don't know has this been noticed widely here (probably yes), but there's something interesting in the 2008 regs: "the ACO is studying specific rules for LMP1 which will be equipped with a kinetic energy recovery system."

regenerative braking or flybrid, or both?

[Oldtony]

The heavy battery problem doesn't apply to KERS or race type hybrid applications. The majotity of storage would most probably be in capacitor form as used in the Toyota Supra Hybrid GT. THe main sfficienct then becomes the conversion of braking energy to useable power, increasing acceleration and saving fuel. Sounds like just the sort of development that is going to make Endurance Prototypes more important than F1 in the next few years, so get on with it Pug.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by 1969MGCGTdriver

regenerative braking or flybrid, or both?

Don't know, all it says is that what I already quoted.

Max Mosley recently delighted that introducing KERS will revolutionize F1. In this article, which is already months old there's critic that weight rules in F1 is going to scew up the whole thing:

http://www.evworld.com/syndicated/ev...ticle_1160.cfm

But it's already old article, so things might have changed.

[Oldtony]

Interesting article. I'm afraid niether Purnell or Ricardo have been able to beat any technical nouse into Max or the FIA's collective heads, so that is how the KERS rules for 2009 are worded. They have already been dismissed by Toyota as "10 years behind the Prius".
That's what I mean about Endurance racing becoming more important than F1. Presuming the ACO writes the rules with a modicum of sense that is so the engineers can get on with the job

[deggis]

Two articles more about F1...

The KERS system is basically a CVT connected to a flywheel that engages on deceleration, recuperating some of the energy that would otherwise be converted to heat in the brakes. This spins the flywheel up, which continues spinning until called upon to boost acceleration. Under the new rules, which go into effect in 2009, the driver can only use the boost provided by the KERS system for a predetermined amount of time and at an established rate, much like the ‘Push to Pass’ technology in Champ Car World Series racing.

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/m...ecovery-system
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/m...-in-f1-by-2009

[deggis]

Originally Posted by deggis

In this article, which is already months old there's critic that weight rules in F1 is going to scew up the whole thing:

http://www.evworld.com/syndicated/ev...ticle_1160.cfm

Written in 2006 but it was quite spot on:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/66521

[ss_collins]

Zytek has revealed its intentions

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Zytek has revealed its intentions

Because you can not self advertise, a link: http://www.racecar-engineering.com/n...this-year.html

[gttouring]

the toyota system with capacitors seem to make more sense than that wacky flywheel
i may be thick headed about this as i have to pee really bad and i am shirking my work obligations at the moment.

Capcitors can only help and the essence of using fuel under acceleration is why the engines need to be so big correct? the bigger the more torque and power so the faster it can get to top speed. wher with the KERS or the capacitor discharge the cars can get up going and use a much smaller motor for the higher end stuff is this the intended idea, or just the same motors with better fuel consumption? the toyota supra did it use the ex SuperGT V8? or the old Turbo 4 super gt motor?

[Graham Goodwin]

A couple of recent additions to the stories covered above

From the Barcelona LMS weekend -

M. Barge also clarified a previous Peugeot statement on the potential for a hybridised diesel electric racer to take to the tracks later this year: “It is true that we are working on a concept race car but this is for a test programme starting later this year, and not for a race programme.”

And from an interview over the Easter weekend with new co-owner of Zytek Lawrence Tomlinson

“On the racing front, we’ll be building some LMP1 cars which will have, we believe, a significant advantage over many of the cars that are out there currently.

“We want to race this year starting at Road Atlanta then Laguna Seca, then Sebring and Le Mans (in 2009) plus the whole 2009 Le Mans Series.

“Team LNT hope to have two LMP1 cars at Le Mans in 2009. Danny (Watts) and Tom (Kimber-Smith) are part of that programme, together with the sort of drivers that you know we like to run. Whether Deany and I will race one we’ll have to see!

[FIRE]

Despite Tomlinson is co-owner of Zytek I am surprised Team LNT will move to prototypes. I expected them to focus on the Ginetta GT2 car.