Spending Cap in F1

[awrb]

Just read on Autosport that a cap could be put on the spending of the teams in F1. While a can see the advantages of this, surely it's a bad idea. http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/67410

Surely it means the engineers are going to get paid lees, or even lose their jobs. But does this mean that the F1 teams could even move out oof Britain and Europe to cheeper places. Motorsport brings a lot of money to the UK, and employs a lot of people, and i'm pretty sure we don't want to lose the one sport where we still are ahead of the rest of the world.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by awrb

While a can see the advantages of this, surely it's a bad idea.

Why is it a bad idea ?

[Chiefy]

I'm sure there's a downside and an upside. I think it's a good idea. Remember a budget cap wouldn't necessarily put everyone on a Minardi budget. Instead the teams might just be capped at the level of Renault, for example. But ultimately a Minardi budget (at least on development) might meet with my approval if it opens the gate to new teams, more drivers and better action.

I think the instigation of budget capping could prove successful in terms of delivering to the fan - but that might depend on how the FIA handles it and how the fat cats take the news.

[JohnSSC]

So, how do you enforce it? How do you account for the support teams get from the manufacturer/owner/partner? How do you separate what happens at the Sakahachi R & D center from what work is "contracted" from Sakahchi Motors F1?

Personally, I think "budget caps" are going to be put in place soon. Not by FIA or FOMA, but by the manufacturers reacting to the slowing economy. I just do not see Fiat, M-B, BMW, Renault, Toyota & Honda sinking hundreds of millions of $$ into F1 (or any racing) while shareholders are screaming for returns on their shares or their own R & D people are looking for $$ to develop new products.

[Armco Bender]

Just read on Autosport that a cap could be put on the spending of the teams in F1.

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[Steve Carter]

Originally Posted by Armco Bender

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Im with you Armco Bender - they have to be kidding - so theyre not going to be capping drivers salaries/team principles/marketing/KERS costs etc (i.e. 30-50% of the costs) but cap the tech side ie engineers/designers/wind tunnel usage/crew etc - so here we have the guys with the grey matter in the design and tech side being hindered further - oh god the engine guys must be bored out of their skulls - and this is the pinacle of motor sport - fcuk me when will it all just crash & burn so we can see some sense in this formula - thank god Le Mans is looking like the real deal when it comes innovative formulas and its not bad racing

[BootsOntheSide]

Budget caps just aren't enforcable - the top teams will be able to fix the accounts to make their spending look like half what it really is. Something has to be done to protect the smaller teams and try to encourage new non-works outfits, but I'm not sure this is it.

[Chiefy]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

[Wrex]

Ironically, its teams like STR, Williams and Jordan (yeah, I know, they are still bloody Jordan to me) that will suffer.

First up the budgets will be above what they are spending anyway, and secondly they cant hide R&D in the Pirus or other new Hybrid hatchback that may or may not use a form of KERS.

And as a former accountant, I REALLY don't buy this 'big companies can't hide it' crap.

[vinegar]

[Marbot]

Gerhard Berger says:

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpa...s_art_id=34839

[Steve Carter]

I was just reading in the Sunday Herald here (in Peter McKays motor sport section) that confirmed figures that Lewis Hamiltons base salary is $155 million over 5 years from Mercedes Mclaren ($31 million USD PA) + a further $10.7 million USD from Nike + bonus' on top of that - he is now the highest paid British sports person - i.e. he earns more than Beckham now. Sporting analysts say he will earn more than a $1billion USD from his career. And driver salaries are not in the FIA cost cutting equation - that makes a lot of sense doesnt it. Hes not the only one earning that sort of base salary Im sure.

Not only will drivers salaries be exempt - so will Team Principle salaries - KERS costs - Marketing costs etc - the cost containment seems to be in the area of design teams/engineers/crews/wind tunnels - engines (the poor old engine tech guys must be bored out of their skulls as it is with the spec V8 formula). My gut feel is the teams will not accept this and it will be thrown out especially if Max gets his marching orders and someone more user friendly is slotted into his position

[Satorian]

Originally Posted by Steve Carter

I was just reading in the Sunday Herald here (in Peter McKays motor sport section) that confirmed figures that Lewis Hamiltons base salary is $155 million over 5 years from Mercedes Mclaren ($31 million USD PA) + a further $10.7 million USD from Nike + bonus' on top of that - he is now the highest paid British sports person - i.e. he earns more than Beckham now. Sporting analysts say he will earn more than a $1billion USD from his career. And driver salaries are not in the FIA cost cutting equation - that makes a lot of sense doesnt it. Hes not the only one earning that sort of base salary Im sure.

Not only will drivers salaries be exempt - so will Team Principle salaries - KERS costs - Marketing costs etc - the cost containment seems to be in the area of design teams/engineers/crews/wind tunnels - engines (the poor old engine tech guys must be bored out of their skulls as it is with the spec V8 formula). My gut feel is the teams will not accept this and it will be thrown out especially if Max gets his marching orders and someone more user friendly is slotted into his position

But the thing is, on those areas not included in the cap you are going to hit diminishing returns quickly and hard.

So Hamilton earns a lot of money. Is he worth that in points compared to, say, Kovalainen or Vettel? Kovalainen was a bargain and seems hardly worse than Hamilton. The driver performance distribution seems quite dense in F1 and while top teams can feel free to splash out tens of millions on a driver to gain even the slightest edge, minor teams won't have to feel bad about saving those exact millions on a driver only slightly worse (if at all). If the top teams redirected funds towards drivers, then that would actually be very good for the smaller teams I think, because it wouldn't go into improving the car while the driver gains would be minimal. It would level the playing field for the teams.

[Razor]

The V8 Supercars had a salary cap last year of nearly AUD 7M. The cap was only around for a few months before problems reared it's ugly head.

[Pingguest]

I still think that the costs itself is not a problem. Its more about where it is spend on. The current regulations don't allow many road relevant innovations.

[Steve Carter]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I still think that the costs itself is not a problem. Its more about where it is spend on. The current regulations don't allow many road relevant innovations.

Hi Ping is there any relevance in having road relevant technology in F1 or is that just pandering to the manufacturers - or do you want a full blown relevant racing series without the manufacturers - they will leave at some stage anyway

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I still think that the costs itself is not a problem.

So spending $500m per annum on putting two cars on a grid for two hours every other Sunday is not a problem ? If I were a BMW,Mercedes or Ferrari customer I'd much rather that they spent some of that money on ironing out their cars numerous faults.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

So spending $500m per annum on putting two cars on a grid for two hours every other Sunday is not a problem ? If I were a BMW,Mercedes or Ferrari customer I'd much rather that they spent some of that money on ironing out their cars numerous faults.

Their R&D costs for Formula 1 are just a relatively small part of their total R&D costs. The problem is that most R&D goes to technologies which are relatively unrelevant for road cars compared to other things like engines, suspension, electronics and brakes.

Max Mosley wants to make Formula 1 'green' by reducing the fuel consumption and emissions of greenhouse gases. But I still don't understand why he introduced the freeze on engine development. For the evolution towards a 'green' Formula 1 the development of fuel efficient and clean engines is necessary.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Max Mosley wants to make Formula 1 'green' by reducing the fuel consumption and emissions of greenhouse gases.

The problem is that a lot of buyers of road cars don't actually consider being 'green' as a number one priority.Apparently more money would be saved and less CO2 put out if people just 'downgraded' their vehicle to something that they need rather than something that they want.Does Mrs Suburbia really need that V8 four wheel drive behemoth ?

Of course we can buy what we want,but we'll have to pay the price for that!

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

The problem is that a lot of buyers of road cars don't actually consider being 'green' as a number one priority.Apparently more money would be saved and less CO2 put out if people just 'downgraded' their vehicle to something that they need rather than something that they want.Does Mrs Suburbia really need that V8 four wheel drive behemoth ?

Of course we can buy what we want,but we'll have to pay the price for that!

Reducing greenhouse gases indeed isn't the first priority for most consumers. I'm one of them. I'm even skepetical to the theory of man-made climate change. But that's another discussion.

Fuel consumption is going to be main issue as oil prices are continue to rise the next couple of decades. It already is a main issue in the United States. And although reducing greenhouse gases won't be a priority for most consumers, it will become a main issue for the manufactures as authorities (like the EU) will continue introducing new and more strict emission rules.

[Steve Carter]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Their R&D costs for Formula 1 are just a relatively small part of their total R&D costs. The problem is that most R&D goes to technologies which are relatively unrelevant for road cars compared to other things like engines, suspension, electronics and brakes.

Max Mosley wants to make Formula 1 'green' by reducing the fuel consumption and emissions of greenhouse gases. But I still don't understand why he introduced the freeze on engine development. For the evolution towards a 'green' Formula 1 the development of fuel efficient and clean engines is necessary.

Yes F1 technology has been totally irrelevant for road cars - Mario Illien & Barnard said exactly the same in a recent Motorsport UK interview. They are however more swayed by the 'green technology' and the prospects of opening up the engine specs - currently its a 'spec V8 engine' no matter the manufacturer and so are all within 20 BHP of one another - they ask the question why?.
It also begs the question - what do you term green technology - is it confined to fuels or KERS system whatever - I was reading some time back re alternative fuels in Wheels Magazine and it was very exhaustively researched - I cant remember what they came up with but I think ethonal was the best alternative - forget electric/gas etc etc - I dont think anyone has an alternative - and if they did its all about the technology and more importantly the money (i.e. who controls it) currently OPEC control the oil reserves. If anyone has read that Wheels (Australian mag) feel free to throw your lot in.

[Pro Racer]

i think it would be hard to police and the troubles on the same scale of Stephneygate could rear their ugly head.

[Marbot]

F1 can't afford to get caught out using the wrong technology,which in my opinion is exactly what it's heading for.

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Steve Carter

Yes F1 technology has been totally irrelevant for road cars - Mario Illien & Barnard said exactly the same in a recent Motorsport UK interview. They are however more swayed by the 'green technology' and the prospects of opening up the engine specs - currently its a 'spec V8 engine' no matter the manufacturer and so are all within 20 BHP of one another - they ask the question why?.

I don't want to end in a 'yes/no-discussion', but other people said the opposite and that motorsport has and could have a road relevance to a certain level.

[Steve Carter]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

I don't want to end in a 'yes/no-discussion', but other people said the opposite and that motorsport has and could have a road relevance to a certain level.

Ping Im not looking for a yes/no discussion - totally the opposite. Im not sure what F1 as a whole wants or thinks it needs and whether its relevant to anything other than itself - does that make sense.

John Barnard & Mario Illien were basically expressing a opinion that there has been no correlation to road technology in the past (Motor Sport UK issue March 2008 for those interested) - and that is correct. What theyre saying is and I quote 'This could be a fantastic challenge for both the racing and the road car industries' - but from an F1 background as only they could.

Now whether that is possible is an even bigger question and how do you set the parameters - is it KERS based and/or fuel based etc and if fuel comes into it which fuel etc and at the end of the day will any of this filter down to the general populice and the day to day cars that everyone drives in the near future produced by the manufacturers in the business of F1 today and will those manufacturers still be in F1 tomorrow - BCE says most likely the manufacturers will not be here & I tend to believe that stance.

The other side of the coin is what we fans want from F1 - well I for one want a race series that isnt controlled to the minute degree - where racing and overtaking is possible yet retain that mantle of the 'pinnacle of motor sport tecnology' - I guess its let the 'clever guys - i.e. the tech guys and engineers etc)' make and initiate those ideas to win - without the handcuffs they currently operate with in the current guidelines - god it must be boring for the engine guys in a 'spec' V8 series and aero bits that cost millions to achieve a 10th of a second when you know 'give me a free hand and I will show you what we can do' would achieve so much more from an engineers and a fans point of view and for the spectacle of the sport - (you will have to excuse me but my ultimate motor sport formulas were 1960/70s GP & Can Am 1966-1974) so I'm a bit of a free form tragic.

I think the 'green' thing is a load of rubbish really and you can always work towards a more efficient technology in anything but lets not be led to the trough and made to drink when it doesnt make sense - if that makes sense - I think F1 and the sport needs to make a decision of what it wants to be - forget all the other influences.