[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[Adam43]

How it has developed over the years.

Obviously the approach was a bit different pre-2023 before we had the first wave of additional constructors joining.

Probably from now on I will start these tables in 2023. I have included a chart of 2023 only.

Weight (Kg)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
23/4/2021	Spa	1040		930
28/4/2021	Spa	1040		930
2/6/2021	Portimao	1066	1030	952
5/6/2021	Portimao	1066	1030	952
12/6/2021	Portimao	1066	1030	952
8/7/2021	Monza	1066	1030	952
4/8/2021	Le Mans	1066	1030	952
2/11/2021	Bahrain	1040		930
3/4/2022	Sebring	1070	1030	952
27/4/2022	Spa	1070	1030	952
1/6/2022	Le Mans	1070	1030	952
9/6/2022	Le Mans	1070	1030	952
10/6/2022	Le Mans	1070	1030	952
5/7/2022	Monza	1071	1030	952	1079
3/9/2022	Fuji	1053	1012	952	1061
6/9/2022	Fuji	1053	1012	952	1061
4/11/2022	Bahrain	1053		952	1049
8/3/2023	Sebring	1062	1030		1049	1038	1057	1048	1030
8/3/2023	Portimao	1043	1030		1042	1035	1040	1045	1030
31/5/2023	Le Mans	1080	1030		1042	1046	1064	1048	1030
3/7/2023	Monza	1080	1030		1046	1032	1069	1049	1030
3/7/2023	Fuji	1080	1030		1038	1039	1076	1054	1030
3/7/2023	Bahrain	1080	1030		1041	1037	1075	1053	1030
26/10/2023	Bahrain	1080	1030		1041	1030	1075	1046	1030
14/2/2024	Qatar	1089			1030	1032	1075	1048		1070	1060	1041	1085
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Max Power (kW)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
23/4/2021	Spa	520		454
28/4/2021	Spa	520		454
2/6/2021	Portimao	515	520	450
5/6/2021	Portimao	515	520	450
12/6/2021	Portimao	515	520	450
8/7/2021	Monza	515	520	450
4/8/2021	Le Mans	515	520	450
2/11/2021	Bahrain	520		454
3/4/2022	Sebring	506	520	430
27/4/2022	Spa	506	520	410
1/6/2022	Le Mans	506	520	420
9/6/2022	Le Mans	506	520	427
10/6/2022	Le Mans	506	520	417
5/7/2022	Monza	513	533	428	515
3/9/2022	Fuji	513	533	399	515
6/9/2022	Fuji	513	533	399	515
4/11/2022	Bahrain	509		403	515
8/3/2023	Sebring	517	520		518	513	515	517	511
8/3/2023	Portimao	512	520		516	513	509	516	512
31/5/2023	Le Mans	512	520		516	513	509	516	512
3/7/2023	Monza	507	520		520	498	497	506	520
3/7/2023	Fuji	514	520		520	505	505	514	520
3/7/2023	Bahrain	514	520		520	504	505	514	520
26/10/2023	Bahrain	514	520		520	504	505	514	520
14/2/2024	Qatar	510			520	499	503	505		510	506	502	514
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

The spread of these Qatar power:weight are pretty narrow. With the exception of poor old Peugeot.

Originally Posted by TF110

I think it's Toyota's understanding of the tires and how they use them more efficiently than the others. Their double stints are much more productive and the extra weight seems like it's there to push tire wear up.

Toyota and Ferrari have the same power to weight, so maybe you are on to something. Interesting if that is what they are doing. A bit of a shame in some ways. Maybe Ferrari won't need the tyre warmers

[Adam43]

Some changes here.

Energy Allocation (MJ)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
23/4/2021	Spa	964		920
28/4/2021	Spa	964		920
2/6/2021	Portimao	962	965	918
5/6/2021	Portimao	962	965	918
12/6/2021	Portimao	962	965	918
8/7/2021	Monza	962	965	918
4/8/2021	Le Mans	962	965	844
2/11/2021	Bahrain	909		816
3/4/2022	Sebring	898	910	797
27/4/2022	Spa	898	910	797
1/6/2022	Le Mans	898	910	774
9/6/2022	Le Mans	898	910	785
10/6/2022	Le Mans	898	910	753
5/7/2022	Monza	905	921	795	909
3/9/2022	Fuji	905	921	752	909
6/9/2022	Fuji	905	921	752	909
4/11/2022	Bahrain	901		763	908
8/3/2023	Sebring	913	911		909	905	908	912	900
8/3/2023	Portimao	904	913		908	904	899	910	901
31/5/2023	Le Mans	908	913		908	905	901	910	901
3/7/2023	Monza	908	916		914	890	893	899	913
3/7/2023	Fuji	907	909		908	894	898	906	903
3/7/2023	Bahrain	908	909		908	895	901	909	906
26/10/2023	Bahrain	908	909		908	894	901	908	906
14/2/2024	Qatar	914			904	891	902	900		909	904	895	917
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Not a perfect correlation, but there remains that relationship between power and energy allocation. Well, apart from poor old Peugeot. To a much lesser extent and the other way the other Hypercar front wheel drives Ferrari and Toyota are outliers. See the chart.

[Adam43]

Here is the practically pointless IMSA WEC comparison of power:weight.

The Cadillac has a slightly higher P/W than Porsche in both. BMW is an outlier and loses out in WEC.

I am going to attribute that to my little new car conservative BoP theory.

[Adam43]

BTW, I don't think the front wheel drive activation speeds have changed, but will check when I get the official bulletin. It doesn't impact the newbies anyway. You never know maybe they will make it really really low for poor old Peugeot.

I don't know Pit stop docking times have changed. They were correlated with Hypercar Hybrid (1.2s), LMDh (1.0s) and Hypoercar non-hybrid (0.0s), so we can probably guess what they will be for the newbies - Isotta Fraachini being the only one now with no added time.

[TF110]

But Isotta is also hybrid. So what will the rule makers decide.

[tomcug]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I don’t understand what you mean here.

I mean that we probably won't see the true potential of Isotta's car because of their drivers line-up.

[Sodemo]

I dont understand why they can't all just start at the same weight and the same power. It should then be up to the team to get the best out of the chassis and tyres.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by tomcug

I mean that we probably won't see the true potential of Isotta's car because of their drivers line-up.

Ah, got it. Thanks I was too busy thinking it was related to BoP.

Originally Posted by TF110

But Isotta is also hybrid. So what will the rule makers decide.

So it is. Scrub that comedy theory then!

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

Problem is : BoP was sold to everyone as "track free" process, supposed to be working only thanks to data collected during the homologation process. All cars should be in the performance window and then it is all up to the teams to extract more from their package.

Publishing just one BoP for the first race, we all understand it has now become a Balance of Results rather than a Balance of Performance. I can guarantee that the Isotta will lose weight quite extensively during the season. 'Cause there is no way, and I mean NO WAY, they have a car as quick as the Ferrari, something the BoP tends to imply.

Where was this sold to anyone? Otherwise why would they have announced BoP and then adjustments. I think people ASSUMED it was a set something. If you don't like it, again feel free to make your own series but you saw what nothing did so....

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I dont understand why they can't all just start at the same weight and the same power. It should then be up to the team to get the best out of the chassis and tyres.

Why? Guess MORE regs would be better in your eyes?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I dont understand why they can't all just start at the same weight and the same power. It should then be up to the team to get the best out of the chassis and tyres.

They tried that for 96 years. They are trying a different approach now.

That is not how it is designed and it would be unfair to do that we’ve these cars.

They aren’t designing cars to a minimum weight and maximum power. They are designing it to a window performance; drag, downforce that kind of thing. This is then homologated.

That allows the manufacturers to have a bit more identity and also, importantly, keeps costs down. Hence the nine manufacturers we have now and the ability for some of them to provide privateer cars.

It is recognised that the homologation process isn’t perfect so some balancing afterwards is needed.

This isn’t an easy job as it is difficult to separate the on track lap times and the inherent performance of all the other variables (fuel, drivers, strategy, tyre management, set-up, changing conditions).

What we’ve had is a really close, historically really close, grid. But still seen that people with experience have managed to find a way to make their car work best. We’ve still maintained so much of the elements in an endurance race that makes it what it is.

It won’t be perfect, but it started pretty good. They need to keep working to make it better.

A lot of us would like a here are some simple rules. 1000kg and 520kW. However the race organisers have to be realistic. This idealistic situation doesn’t give you a big diverse entry. Mainly because, rightly, these entrants don’t want to waste money on this as either they don’t have it, or it isn’t worth it.

Maybe the series will die though because this will keep being lost. Maybe we can’t have nice things.

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Adam43

ries will die though because this will keep being lost. Maybe we can’t have nice things.

Yeah, that. If it's nice maybe my idea is nicerer

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Adam43

They tried that for 96 years. They are trying a different approach now.

That is not how it is designed and it would be unfair to do that we’ve these cars.

They aren’t designing cars to a minimum weight and maximum power. They are designing it to a window performance; drag, downforce that kind of thing. This is then homologated.

That allows the manufacturers to have a bit more identity and also, importantly, keeps costs down. Hence the nine manufacturers we have now and the ability for some of them to provide privateer cars.

It is recognised that the homologation process isn’t perfect so some balancing afterwards is needed.

This isn’t an easy job as it is difficult to separate the on track lap times and the inherent performance of all the other variables (fuel, drivers, strategy, tyre management, set-up, changing conditions).

What we’ve had is a really close, historically really close, grid. But still seen that people with experience have managed to find a way to make their car work best. We’ve still maintained so much of the elements in an endurance race that makes it what it is.

It won’t be perfect, but it started pretty good. They need to keep working to make it better.

A lot of us would like a here are some simple rules. 1000kg and 520kW. However the race organisers have to be realistic. This idealistic situation doesn’t give you a big diverse entry. Mainly because, rightly, these entrants don’t want to waste money on this as either they don’t have it, or it isn’t worth it.

Maybe the series will die though because this will keep being lost. Maybe we can’t have nice things.

Are you suggesting that some cars dont make the min weight of 1030kg?

[Adam43]

No. Not sure how that’s the takeaway from my post!

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Toyota and Ferrari have the same power to weight, so maybe you are on to something. Interesting if that is what they are doing. A bit of a shame in some ways. Maybe Ferrari won't need the tyre warmers

I think that if they are actually attempting to do this it is a low down dirty shame. I accept that BoP needs to exist, but I feel that effectively operating your tyres should not be one of the PILLARS OF LAZINESS that can be leaned upon. We're effectively saying that it is counting for naught to actually build and develop a better car than your competitors.

[Adam43]

Surely you mean LOW DOWN DIRTY SHAME!

As I said I’d prefer if they didn’t do this.

It could more likely be wanting to correct for a small difference in the behavior of the cars. Similar overall speed, a nuance that a heavier car with the same power to weight might solve.

Could still have an impact on the tyre wear, but then that could have been a result of the initial homologation as well as their inherent management knowledge.

Really it was the tyre warmers that was RIDICULOUSLY DIRTY PILLAR SHAME.

One other aspect I meant to bring up was a sense of perspective here!

But I’m just interested and enjoy the racing.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Surely you mean LOW DOWN DIRTY SHAME!

As I said I’d prefer if they didn’t do this.

It could more likely be wanting to correct for a small difference in the behavior of the cars. Similar overall speed, a nuance that a heavier car with the same power to weight might solve.

Could still have an impact on the tyre wear, but then that could have been a result of the initial homologation as well as their inherent management knowledge.

Really it was the tyre warmers that was RIDICULOUSLY DIRTY PILLAR SHAME.

One other aspect I meant to bring up was a sense of perspective here!

But I’m just interested and enjoy the racing.

No argument there, but to be honest, I feel like they were going to do whatever it took to "have their fairy tale" so it is what it was.


Roll on with the races, lets see how this year unfolds. I'm sure this thread is due for a lot of traffic.

[veeten]

Hey, I remember that movie... with Keenan Ivory Wayans and Jada Pinkett-Smith as 'Peaches'.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by veeten

Hey, I remember that movie... with Keenan Ivory Wayans and Jada Pinkett-Smith as 'Peaches'.

[Simmi]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...season-opener/

Some more tweakage of values ahead of Bahrain.

[Sodemo]

Again, I just dont understand why all cars can't (at the very least) start at the same weight, power etc.

Second question; Why is the IF set so heavy?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

Again, I just dont understand why all cars can't (at the very least) start at the same weight, power etc.

Because that is not how this rule set works. If this was the first race of the category then maybe, even then.

Second question; Why is the IF set so heavy?

The same thing happened to Peugeot in their first race. I could be down to a conservative approach to a new car before they have data.

Although if you think for a second, it is not even that conservative. It is between between two other Hypercars - Ferrari and Toyota. So actually it is trying to do what you think they should do for a first race - it's inline with the other Hypercars! They have allowed for the category difference and ignored the extreme example of the rubbish Peugeot!
Again.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Simmi

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...season-opener/

Some more tweakage of values ahead of Bahrain.

I only see one difference. 890MJ energy for Cadillac rather than the previously 891MJ. As this is potentially just a typo in the original report I have just replaced the values in the tables. The table only shows official bulletins.

The bulletin provides the other data too.

Peugeot is back up to 150kmph deployment speed when it is wet (unlikely to be a thing at the next race).

The docking times are all 1s lower. Now there is no Glickenhaus or Vanwall they have just maintained the 0.2s difference between Hypercar and LMDh.

Weight (Kg)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	1062	1030		1049	1038	1057	1048	1030
8/3/2023	Portimao	1043	1030		1042	1035	1040	1045	1030
31/5/2023	Le Mans	1080	1030		1042	1046	1064	1048	1030
3/7/2023	Monza	1080	1030		1046	1032	1069	1049	1030
3/7/2023	Fuji	1080	1030		1038	1039	1076	1054	1030
3/7/2023	Bahrain	1080	1030		1041	1037	1075	1053	1030
26/10/2023	Bahrain	1080	1030		1041	1030	1075	1046	1030
16/2/2024	Qatar	1089			1030	1032	1075	1048		1070	1060	1041	1085
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Energy Allocation (MJ)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	913	911		909	905	908	912	900
8/3/2023	Portimao	904	913		908	904	899	910	901
31/5/2023	Le Mans	908	913		908	905	901	910	901
3/7/2023	Monza	908	916		914	890	893	899	913
3/7/2023	Fuji	907	909		908	894	898	906	903
3/7/2023	Bahrain	908	909		908	895	901	909	906
26/10/2023	Bahrain	908	909		908	894	901	908	906
16/2/2024	Qatar	914			904	890	902	900		909	904	895	917
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Max Power (kW)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL	ALPINE	BMW	LAMBORGHINI	ISOTTA FRAACHINI
8/3/2023	Sebring	517	520		518	513	515	517	511
8/3/2023	Portimao	512	520		516	513	509	516	512
31/5/2023	Le Mans	512	520		516	513	509	516	512
3/7/2023	Monza	507	520		520	498	497	506	520
3/7/2023	Fuji	514	520		520	505	505	514	520
3/7/2023	Bahrain	514	520		520	504	505	514	520
26/10/2023	Bahrain	514	520		520	504	505	514	520
16/2/2024	Qatar	510			520	499	503	505		510	506	502	514
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680	A424	M Hybrid V8	SC63	Tipo6-C

Add Docking Time (s)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	GLICKENHAUS	ORECA	PEUGEOT	CADILLAC	FERRARI	PORSCHE	VANWALL
8/3/2023	Sebring	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
8/3/2023	Portimao	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
31/5/2023	Le Mans	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
3/7/2023	Monza	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
3/7/2023	Fuji	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
3/7/2023	Bahrain	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
26/10/2023	Bahrain	1.2	0		1.2	1	1.2	1	0
16/2/2024	Qatar	0.2			0.2	0	0.2	0
		GR010 Hybrid	-- 007 LMH --	---- R13 ----	---- 9X8 ----	- V-Series.R	--- 499P ----	---- 963 ----	Vandervell 680

Ft.Depl. Speed (kph in DRY)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	PEUGEOT	FERRARI
8/3/2023	Sebring	190	150	190
8/3/2023	Portimao	190	150	190
31/5/2023	Le Mans	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Monza	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Fuji	190	135	190
3/7/2023	Bahrain	190	135	190
26/10/2023	Bahrain	190	135	190
16/2/2024	Qatar	190	150	190
		GR010 Hybrid	---- 9X8 ----	--- 499P ----

Ft.Depl. Speed (kph in WET)

-- Bulletin --	--- Track ---	TOYOTA	PEUGEOT	FERRARI
8/3/2023	Sebring	190	150	190
8/3/2023	Portimao	190	150	190
31/5/2023	Le Mans	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Monza	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Fuji	190	150	190
3/7/2023	Bahrain	190	150	190
26/10/2023	Bahrain	190	150	190
16/2/2024	Qatar	190	150	190
		GR010 Hybrid	---- 9X8 ----	--- 499P ----

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Because that is not how this rule set works. If this was the first race of the category then maybe, even then.

The same thing happened to Peugeot in their first race. I could be down to a conservative approach to a new car before they have data.

Although if you think for a second, it is not even that conservative. It is between between two other Hypercars - Ferrari and Toyota. So actually it is trying to do what you think they should do for a first race - it's inline with the other Hypercars! They have allowed for the category difference and ignored the extreme example of the rubbish Peugeot!
Again.

Let it run unrestricted and to glory or fire in its first run.

I'm pretty sure even unrestricted there's a chance it wouldn't make it to the end for other reasons

[Sodemo]

I appreciate the openness in the BOP tables (its a stark contrast to the BTCC), however whilst we have the end result, we don't get any of the reasoning behind the decisions.

[Steve McQ]

Does anyone knows what the hell is "Power gain after 210 kph", the new BoP criteria appearing on the last published BoP table ? I understand it won't be in effect at Bahrain but I can't understand what's behind it.