New ACO rules - bad calls? - Page 2

PorscheFanNo1 · 22 Sep 2007, 22:06 (Ref:2020672)

Well then, in the late 80s ACO wanted to be a part of WSPC but FIA didnt allow them as the straight was too long for FIA events with their new safety standards, as you know was LM part of WSPC up to 88 and only in 91 when the chickanes where put in they where allowed back into WSPC.

JAG · 23 Sep 2007, 01:13 (Ref:2020732)

Quote:

Originally Posted by tblincoe

That's actually far from "certain" at the moment... and it would be for an initial season in 2010, and mandatory from 2011 on.

Well to be 100% correct you could run a GTP coupe from 2008 (if the regs are published this October/November).

Acura have pressed the ACO to publish the regs promptly so their expected 2009 P1 would be a GTP, not a current P1 with limited lifespan.

JAG · 23 Sep 2007, 01:15 (Ref:2020733)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ger80

Mr. Peter made this statement on Motors TV too. Is that confirmed by others?
Dyson runs higher weight due to the use of the endurance engine all season? So Penske will run higher weight at PLM too?
The Lolas are running a higher weight? They are developed based on the LMP675 and even if the new safety rules give some additional weight and if Lola changed the material in some areas to save some money, I dont understand why they couldnt reach the 775kg limit. E.g. the engines from AER and Judd lost some weight over the last years ....

Not sure about the ALMS runners but the RML Lola is around 820-840kg.

AU N EGL · 23 Sep 2007, 02:13 (Ref:2020748)

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9/89

Like thats ever gonna happen??????????????????????????

ETA the two organisations have rarely seen eye to eye and both believe they have the best series. The FIA wanted Le Mans to be a round of the old WSPC and the ACO said no. This wont be any different. ACO wants to to it their way, and the FIA theirs. AS the saying goes "Never the twain shall meet!"

and that is a good thing.

Manufactures know that LM24 race is a huge marketing tool.

Justin Moran · 23 Sep 2007, 09:02 (Ref:2020835)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Well then, in the late 80s ACO wanted to be a part of WSPC but FIA didnt allow them as the straight was too long for FIA events with their new safety standards, as you know was LM part of WSPC up to 88 and only in 91 when the chickanes where put in they where allowed back into WSPC.

I bow to your vastly superior knowledge!

Justin Moran · 23 Sep 2007, 09:04 (Ref:2020836)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

and that is a good thing.

Manufactures know that LM24 race is a huge marketing tool.

Too true!!

Just looking forward to seeing some closer races in ALL classes whatever the structure, I for one am quite happy to see the class differential widen, it just means when a P2 gets in amongst the P1's, the P1's are gonna have to try harder! Ditto the GT1/2's (in whatever cofiguration they end with)

ss_collins · 23 Sep 2007, 09:50 (Ref:2020851)

I think the rules are just fine as they are (bar GT1) the petrol cars can beat the diesels (well if a P2 porsche can then its possible), and racing is good in ALMS - LMS is a bit dull at times but only cos Pug needs some competition

PorscheFanNo1 · 23 Sep 2007, 10:35 (Ref:2020872)

Quote:

Originally Posted by C9/89

I bow to your vastly superior knowledge!

Well if thats not the case, care to explain it? Its the only version I've ever heard anyway.

Spyderman · 23 Sep 2007, 13:17 (Ref:2020949)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ss_collins

I think the rules are just fine as they are (bar GT1) the petrol cars can beat the diesels (well if a P2 porsche can then its possible), and racing is good in ALMS - LMS is a bit dull at times but only cos Pug needs some competition

Unfortunately the P2 Porsche wouldn’t stand a chance against the diesels at Le Mans... and that really is the one that counts.
The speed differential on the straights is ENORMOUS!

ger80 · 23 Sep 2007, 14:06 (Ref:2020985)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAG

Not sure about the ALMS runners but the RML Lola is around 820-840kg.

Really that high? Maybe a tribute to using the same chassis for P1 and P2?

JAG · 23 Sep 2007, 14:48 (Ref:2021009)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ger80

Really that high? Maybe a tribute to using the same chassis for P1 and P2?

It's suprising how overweight some cars are, at least in previous years.

2003 Bentley 916kg
1999 Mercedes CLR 921kg
2003 Audi 919kg
2002 Caddy 916kg
1999 Panoz 908kg
2002/3 Panoz 933kg
2000 Reynard 940kg
2003 Pescarolo 927kg
2004 Pescarolo 914kg
2003 Panoz LMP07 940kg
2002 Riley Mk III 931kg

JAG · 23 Sep 2007, 14:52 (Ref:2021012)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Unfortunately the P2 Porsche wouldn’t stand a chance against the diesels at Le Mans... and that really is the one that counts.
The speed differential on the straights is ENORMOUS!

This is why the comparison with F2 kit cars (WRC) stands, the P2 cars in the ALMS are ideal ATM, but when manufactuers switch attention to the unique requirements of Le Mans they'll need a P1.

P1 vs P2 is great ATM, but 12-18 months down the line the regs/competition should encourage Porsche into P1, it'll be a natural progression.

AU N EGL · 23 Sep 2007, 15:21 (Ref:2021037)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Unfortunately the P2 Porsche wouldn’t stand a chance against the diesels at Le Mans... and that really is the one that counts.
The speed differential on the straights is ENORMOUS!

You think?

Road America has the second longest straights and second highest speeds after LeMans

Here are the qualifing times. They are all with in 2.1 secs:

LMP1 AUDI SPORT NORTH AMERICA Dindo Capello/Allan McNish 1:47.665 time 135.353 ave speed mph Audi R10 TDI

LMP1 AUDI SPORT NORTH AMERICA Emanuele Pirro/Marco Werner 1:48.036 time 134.888 ave speed mph Audi R10 TD

PENSKE MOTORSPORTS Timo Bernhard/Romain Dumas 1:48.833 time 133.901 ave speed mph Porrsche RS Spyder

PENSKE MOTORSPORTS Sascha Maassen/Ryan Briscoe 1:49.117 time 133.552 ave speed mph
Porsche RS Spyder

HIGHCROFT RACING David Brabham/Stefan Johansson/Duncan Dayton 1:49.767 time
132.761 ave speed Acura ARX-01a

All with in 2.1 sec / lap. And who won? Porsche

The Penske Porsche's were only 4/10s and 8/10s mph slower in qualifying then the Audis

SebringMG · 23 Sep 2007, 16:10 (Ref:2021062)

A P2 does not stand a chance against any P1 car - this is not necesarily a diesel equivalency problem- on the LM straights. I expect that Porsche could sort this out to an extent with a different aero config, in terms of power to weight they are not that far behind the P1 cars (possibly better than many of the privateer P1 cars).

Agree with Jag that if you want to succeed at LM then you need a P1 car - Acura recognise this as do most of the other manufacturers - Porsche will eventually get around to building one at some point in the future...

AU N EGL · 23 Sep 2007, 16:21 (Ref:2021070)

Quote:

Originally Posted by SebringMG

A P2 does not stand a chance against any P1 car - this is not necesarily a diesel equivalency problem- on the LM straights. I expect that Porsche could sort this out to an extent with a different aero config, in terms of power to weight they are not that far behind the P1 cars (possibly better than many of the privateer P1 cars).

Agree with Jag that if you want to succeed at LM then you need a P1 car - Acura recognise this as do most of the other manufacturers - Porsche will eventually get around to building one at some point in the future...

I think the advantage that Audi has with the Diesels, is the low reving engines to produce the speed, vs Porshce Higher rev engines. Audi = realiablity.

Yes both have extesive history at the 24, but Audi with the R10 and R8 have recent success with that chassie, where the Porsche Spyder would be a new chassie to the LM 24.

Spyderman · 23 Sep 2007, 16:34 (Ref:2021079)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

You think?

Road America has the second longest straights and second highest speeds after LeMans

Here are the qualifing times. They are all with in 2.1 secs:

LMP1 AUDI SPORT NORTH AMERICA Dindo Capello/Allan McNish 1:47.665 time 135.353 ave speed mph Audi R10 TDI

LMP1 AUDI SPORT NORTH AMERICA Emanuele Pirro/Marco Werner 1:48.036 time 134.888 ave speed mph Audi R10 TD

PENSKE MOTORSPORTS Timo Bernhard/Romain Dumas 1:48.833 time 133.901 ave speed mph Porrsche RS Spyder

PENSKE MOTORSPORTS Sascha Maassen/Ryan Briscoe 1:49.117 time 133.552 ave speed mph
Porsche RS Spyder

HIGHCROFT RACING David Brabham/Stefan Johansson/Duncan Dayton 1:49.767 time
132.761 ave speed Acura ARX-01a

All with in 2.1 sec / lap. And who won? Porsche

The Penske Porsche's were only 4/10s and 8/10s mph slower in qualifying then the Audis

There is no doubt that over a total lap the Spyders are very competitive (on normal ALMS tracks), but at Le Mans, the Mulsanne straight is such an important part of the lap, that you need to have a competitive straight line speed. (Incidentally it's one of the reasons that the 997's are competitive there)
I just saw some TV footage of Mosport (things are quite delayed here in Africa) and the speed differential on the straight between the Spyders and the Audi's was abysmal.

AU N EGL · 23 Sep 2007, 16:40 (Ref:2021081)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

There is no doubt that over a total lap the Spyders are very competitive (on normal ALMS tracks), but at Le Mans, the Mulsanne straight is such an important part of the lap, that you need to have a competitive straight line speed. (Incidentally it's one of the reasons that the 997's are competitive there)
I just saw some TV footage of Mosport (things are quite delayed here in Africa) and the speed differential on the straight between the Spyders and the Audi's was abysmal.

Yes they were.

I wish there were different trap speed locations on each track, Sebring, Road America, Road Atlanta, LeSarth.

PLM on Road Atlanta is in 2 weeks time. The back straight is long and very high speeds into turn 10. IIRC the Corvettes and Audis were all in the mid 180s. ( my nads only allowed me to go 162 there) So it will be very interesting to see. the turn 7 - 8 combination before the back straight is not really a high speed corner, but speed though T8 is critical to a very fast back straight and down hill into the Turn 10 brake zone.
Take a ride with Clint Field Road Atlanta in LMP2 - Field

Zytek_Fan · 23 Sep 2007, 16:57 (Ref:2021090)

The American tracks are a lot tighter, and twistier which suits the P2s, but it was surprising to see an RS Spyder win overall at Road America. I do think that P2 does need to be slowed down a little bit. Like I said the only place where this is an issue is America, where there are manufacturer teams, which gives them almost unlimited resources for development. In Europe, the P2s are damn fast, but they are privateer ran. Attrition is usually what gets a P2 a high overall position in LMS.

Spyderman · 23 Sep 2007, 17:23 (Ref:2021116)

Slowing down the P2 before adjustments are made to correct the P1 regulations, seems very strange to me.
Why would you want to eliminate any possible competition to the diesels before guaranteeing that there will be other P1 cars (gasoline) to take their place?

JAG · 23 Sep 2007, 17:30 (Ref:2021125)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Slowing down the P2 before adjustments are made to correct the P1 regulations, seems very strange to me.
Why would you want to eliminate any possible competition to the diesels before guaranteeing that there will be other P1 cars (gasoline) to take their place?

The point is the P2's have an advantage over diesel P1's on most (ALMS)) circuits, it isn't even a 50/50 fight. If anything P2's should be in with a shot of victory, but not dominate as they have.

50kg ballast may knock them back half a second, it isn't going to change things greatly.

We'll have to see what breaks petrol P1's recieve.

AU N EGL · 23 Sep 2007, 17:45 (Ref:2021137)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan

In Europe, the P2s are damn fast, but they are privateer ran. Attrition is usually what gets a P2 a high overall position in LMS.

Yes Very true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Slowing down the P2 before adjustments are made to correct the P1 regulations, seems very strange to me.
Why would you want to eliminate any possible competition to the diesels before guaranteeing that there will be other P1 cars (gasoline) to take their place?

Something to do with Politics, the Green Political movements, corn and soybean oils can be used to make diesel, which France grows a lot of both. vs petroleum, which France imports from Iraq and Iran.

Not trying to stay off topic, but the diesel vs petroleum in racing is HIGHLY political along with the environmental issues, of how much petroleum is or is not available in the world, not necessary racing related.

Spyderman · 23 Sep 2007, 18:05 (Ref:2021157)

Thank God some one finally agrees that all this diesel thang is mainly political in nature.

TWK · 23 Sep 2007, 18:15 (Ref:2021169)

The modern, low-sulfur diesels, like the Shell V-Power used by Audi are not derived from biomass or any bio/food source, but rather from natural gas.

Quote:

It (Shell V-Power) doesn’t come from oil, but is an engineered fuel derived from natural gas. Starting with the Fischer-Tropsch process devised in the 1920s to convert coal into liquid fuel (a prospect that alarms environmentalists still today), Shell and other oil companies developed GTL (gas-to-liquid) methods that convert natural gas into not only vehicle fuel, but also engineered lubricants and petrochemical feedstock for the production of plastics. Shell has its own proprietary process. The basics are that it partially oxygenates natural gas to get a blend of carbon monoxide and hydrogen, converts that gas to liquid hydrocarbons, and finally cracks the liquid and refines it into useful products. Other players in this field include Marathon, ConocoPhillips and Sasol Chevron.

(AutoWeek - but there are many other sources.)

Diesel is a large part of the automotive fuel market in Europe of course, and that alone makes it a bit of a political (and economic) imperative to encourage diesel race cars. But it has nothing to do with French agriculture.

Spyderman · 23 Sep 2007, 18:33 (Ref:2021185)

There is noting wrong with encouragement, it's the dissemination of any possible competition that I take exception to.
Also - I'm not sure about the agricultural connection, but the fact that PSA (the Peugeot-Citroen Group) sell huge numbers of diesel cars, may have had some thing to do with the ACO's whole hearted adoption of the diesel policy.

Fogelhund · 23 Sep 2007, 19:28 (Ref:2021214)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zytek_Fan

The American tracks are a lot tighter, and twistier which suits the P2s.

Not this again?

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
P1 top speeds with new ACO rules and regulations???	Garrett	ACO Regulated Series	7	18 Jul 2004 23:33
New ACO rules	Nordic	ACO Regulated Series	14	11 Jul 2004 16:41
Just make the DPs faster (why the "new" GTS rules will make DPs look bad again)	Megatron	Sportscar & GT Racing	14	8 Aug 2003 18:15
New ACO rules announced	Brian W Keske	ACO Regulated Series	12	6 Mar 2003 00:13
Sportscars Rules - ACO vs FIA	NME	Sportscar & GT Racing	4	28 Oct 2002 02:00