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Old 20 Dec 2007, 14:37 (Ref:2092691)   #1
Bentley03
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2008 ACO Technical Regulations

The ACO have announced their technical regulations for 2008.

Sporting Regulations 2008

Le Mans Prototype - LMP1 & LMP2

Le Mans Grand Touring - LM GT1

Le Mans Grand Touring - LM GT2

Appendix A, B & C

Happy reading!
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 14:44 (Ref:2092694)   #2
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ss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
engine wording is interesting - certainly adds fire to the Aston Martin LMP1 rumours
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 14:54 (Ref:2092700)   #3
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TheNewBob should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridTheNewBob should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Appendix C is noteable too, particularly for spectators - maybe the ACO can actually get the position indicators to work this year?
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 15:01 (Ref:2092705)   #4
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Originally Posted by TheNewBob
Appendix C is noteable too, particularly for spectators - maybe the ACO can actually get the position indicators to work this year?
It's a great idea in concept, but by ten hours only half of them work anyway.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 15:13 (Ref:2092708)   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ss_collins
engine wording is interesting - certainly adds fire to the Aston Martin LMP1 rumours

Semi stressed engine, homologated in LMGT1 and used in
a production car built in a quantity of at least 1000 units per
year.


Do they sell 1000 units per year of any particular production car?
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 15:17 (Ref:2092714)   #6
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ss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I'd be staggered if they didn't according to wikirubbish they do 5,000 DB9s per year
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 15:20 (Ref:2092716)   #7
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Ok, just didn't know, thanks for the correction.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 15:23 (Ref:2092720)   #8
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LMP2 :• 80 litres maximum on board

So, as per expected, down from 90 litres.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 15:36 (Ref:2092732)   #9
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ss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridss_collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I think its a shame they have nobbled the P2's so much (but thats another thread)
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 15:44 (Ref:2092744)   #10
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JAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridJAG should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
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Originally Posted by ss_collins
engine wording is interesting - certainly adds fire to the Aston Martin LMP1 rumours
....and GM.

As I stated in another thread, Aston have said they'd like to use the V12, but would need performance breaks.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 15:51 (Ref:2092752)   #11
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LMP2 can use a homologated diesel engine with 4400 cc displacement. The strange thing is that LMP2 diesels can also use a 80 liter tank. If they applied the same logic as in LMP1, the fuel tank should be 72 liter instead.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 16:01 (Ref:2092764)   #12
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ScuderiaV8 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The LMP2 diesel regulations are interesting in that they allow two-stage turbocharging, particularly as Peugeot have a 2.2-litre inline-4 twin-turbo diesel engine in production. WR diesel for 2009?
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 16:07 (Ref:2092772)   #13
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AU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridAU N EGL should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund
Semi stressed engine, homologated in LMGT1 and used in
a production car built in a quantity of at least 1000 units per
year.


Do they sell 1000 units per year of any particular production car?
Corvette does with the LS7
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 16:08 (Ref:2092774)   #14
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paul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridpaul-collins should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
So I assume that Zytek, Courage/ORECA, Lola etc. are all going to be in P2 this year, since P1 is "réservé plus particulièrement aux constructeurs." Correct?
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 16:13 (Ref:2092776)   #15
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I was asking more regarding Astons productions than the Vette, but thanks.

This homologated engine business in LMP2, both Normally Aspirated and Diesel strikes me as odd. So they are encouraging the use of manufacturers engines in the category, but they don't want manufacturers in the category. A bit of mixed signals there really. 4.4 l Diesel... BMW, Ford, any others?
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 16:14 (Ref:2092777)   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScuderiaV8
The LMP2 diesel regulations are interesting in that they allow two-stage turbocharging, particularly as Peugeot have a 2.2-litre inline-4 twin-turbo diesel engine in production. WR diesel for 2009?
I don't see a 2.2L turbo diesel being competitive. The rules allow up to 4.4L with no real dispensation for smaller engines.

It's interesting to note that the equivalent capacity for diesel vs petrol is even more in favour of the diesel in P2 than in P1.

ie the base for petrol P1 is 6L, the base for diesel is 16.17 (2.94bar x 5.5), so the ratio is 2.7
whereas the base for petrol P2 is 4L (homologated) and the base for diesel is 13.2, for a ratio of 3.3.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 16:16 (Ref:2092780)   #17
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Originally Posted by ScuderiaV8
The LMP2 diesel regulations are interesting in that they allow two-stage turbocharging, particularly as Peugeot have a 2.2-litre inline-4 twin-turbo diesel engine in production. WR diesel for 2009?
I highly doubt you can squeeze 500+ bhp out of a 4 cilinder turbo diesel.

It makes a lot more sense to start from a 4 liter V8. E.g.,
  • Audi V8 TDI: 4134 cc, 326 hp, 760 Nm
  • BMW V8 diesel: 4423 cc, 333 hp, 750 Nm
  • Mercedes V8 CDI: 3996 cc, 306 hp, 700 Nm
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 16:40 (Ref:2092789)   #18
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Originally Posted by gwyllion
I highly doubt you can squeeze 500+ bhp out of a 4 cilinder turbo diesel.

It makes a lot more sense to start from a 4 liter V8. E.g.,
  • Audi V8 TDI: 4134 cc, 326 hp, 760 Nm
  • BMW V8 diesel: 4423 cc, 333 hp, 750 Nm
  • Mercedes V8 CDI: 3996 cc, 306 hp, 700 Nm

and Ford 4.4 turbo Diesel 330 hp (246 kW) and 515 ft·lbf (698 N·m)
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 16:44 (Ref:2092791)   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul-collins
It's interesting to note that the equivalent capacity for diesel vs petrol is even more in favour of the diesel in P2 than in P1.

ie the base for petrol P1 is 6L, the base for diesel is 16.17 (2.94bar x 5.5), so the ratio is 2.7
whereas the base for petrol P2 is 4L (homologated) and the base for diesel is 13.2, for a ratio of 3.3.
I am not sure if you are comparing things properly. The power engines can deliver is limited by air in theory; not really true for diesel in practice because they are limited by smoke

So I think you should just compare the restrictor size of turbo charged engines:
  • LMP1
    • turbo petrol: 46 mm
    • turbo diesel: 55.9 mm
    • restrictor size for petrol has 82.3% of diesel
  • LMP2
    • turbo petrol: 42 mm
    • turbo diesel: 53 mm
    • restrictor size for petrol has 79.2% of diesel

I think the difference between LMP1 and LMP2 engine rules is rather small. Remember that you have to start from a road diesel engine, and not from scratch like Audi and Peugeot did.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 17:00 (Ref:2092803)   #20
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According to John Judd, the E10 fuel (mixture of petrol and ethanol) will produce more power, but worse fuel economy.

Does anyone know if the transition from race diesel (mixture of diesel and GTL) to biodiesel (BTL) has influences on the performance of diesel engines?
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 17:03 (Ref:2092806)   #21
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gwyllion or others who might understand French better.

What does this really mean?

a. « LE MANS » PROTOTYPE 1 (« LM »P1) : voiture
ouverte ou fermée , réservé plus
particulièrement aux constructeurs.

Are they restricting non-constructors from LMP1? Or is it warning for the future? I really don't understand the practical need for such a notation.

If they want manufacturers out of P2, fair enough, but that doesn't require a statement intended to keep privateers out of P1.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 17:05 (Ref:2092807)   #22
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Originally Posted by Fogelhund
and Ford 4.4 turbo Diesel 330 hp (246 kW) and 515 ft·lbf (698 N·m)
A quick search suggests this engine is only planned for 2008/2009
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 17:05 (Ref:2092809)   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwyllion
I am not sure if you are comparing things properly. The power engines can deliver is limited by air in theory; not really true for diesel in practice because they are limited by smoke

So I think you should just compare the restrictor size of turbo charged engines:
  • LMP1
    • turbo petrol: 46 mm
    • turbo diesel: 55.9 mm
    • restrictor size for petrol has 82.3% of diesel
  • LMP2
    • turbo petrol: 42 mm
    • turbo diesel: 53 mm
    • restrictor size for petrol has 79.2% of diesel

I think the difference between LMP1 and LMP2 engine rules is rather small. Remember that you have to start from a road diesel engine, and not from scratch like Audi and Peugeot did.
Diesel power is basically unlimited wrt air restrictors, you're right - they can just dump the fuel in and so long as their particulate filters clean the exhaust up, they can easily make power. (Also saw that the P2 diesel fuel cell is unadjusted compared to the petrol one.)

Anyway, it seems to me that, were you going to go with an homologated engine, the diesel would be the way to go from a power perspective. Let's face it, there's no cost-effective way to use an homologated engine, otherwise it would have been done years ago - so all this does is provide a power rationale for going that way, which is going to drive up costs in P2.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 17:07 (Ref:2092810)   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund
gwyllion or others who might understand French better.

What does this really mean?

a. « LE MANS » PROTOTYPE 1 (« LM »P1) : voiture
ouverte ou fermée , réservé plus
particulièrement aux constructeurs.
The right column is in English
Quote:
a/ "LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1 ("LM"P1): open or closed (*) car, destined more especially to manufacturers.
b/ "LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 2 ("LM"P2): open or closed (*) car, destined more especially to privateers.
A rather vague description I would say.
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Old 20 Dec 2007, 17:13 (Ref:2092815)   #25
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I read the English translation, but I've seen better Babblefish translations, and we know the french wording is the rule.

Destined more Especially for Manufacturers.... meaning one day this class will be more for manufacturers than privateers, but not to the exclusion of privateers.

Destined more especially for privateers... meaning one day this class will be more for privateers than manufacturers, but not to the exclusion of manufacturers.

Which really means nothing right? So why introduce words that mean nothing?
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