Le Mans Series 2009

[ThePenguin]

If they are getting Red Bull backed drivers, what about Robert Doornbos, since I don't think that he has a ride for 09 so far.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by cmk

If it's Henri, though, will he really want to give up more than a seat to a non-Frenchman? Even Harold Primat is a stretch!

I was just thinking the same thing although money does talk and Red Bull has incredibly deep pockets....much deeper then Henri.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Its amazing just how far a check from Deiter Matschitz (Red Bull) will go .....

Im sure if he wanted , he could afford to put Micheal Schumacher in that car . His pockets are infinate to what he wants .... I used to work for him , and he is one hell of gentleman ..... nice man , he spent 50 to 60 million euro on restoring the only presureised Douglas DC-6B still in service today ..... VIP , the works . I worked on it too , anything you wanted ..... ask .

This one? Beautiful

(Sorry for the off-topic)

[johntt]

Originally Posted by ThePenguin

If they are getting Red Bull backed drivers, what about Robert Doornbos, since I don't think that he has a ride for 09 so far.

It probably depends on whether Superleague Formula takes off.

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

What about a P2 Lola Coupe with an Aston Martin V8???

Charouz Racing is already running in LMP1 with a Lola Coupe powered with an Aston Martin GT1 engine... and they are going very strong with that combination...

At the qualifying at Nürburgring actually they outpaced the Audi's.

[AU N EGL]

Hope any team that uses Aston Martin Engines has better support from AMR then their GT teams did.

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Hope any team that uses Aston Martin Engines has better support from AMR then their GT teams did.

I think they do, at the last LMS race on the Nürburgring paddock I saw in addition to the Charouz trucks two Aston Martin Racing trucks and one Lola truck...

[JAG]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Huh? Low risk? Someone out there peddaling your name with a large chance of mucking it up! I think not!



This ain't rallying!



It would not suprise me to see the LS7 has had evolutionary homologation updates. But everytime it happens it has to be re-homologated.

It still belongs to somebody, most people/companies do not spend mega bucks on development to just give it away.

L.P.

Course it's low risk, GM and Ford engines are ten a penny, it's simply a matter of making the best available.

Rallyings relevant as they've had strict homologation regs for decades, yet there's still freedom to build your own engines.

How often do teams/manufactuers make engine changes, engines aren't sealed once homologated, there's some freedom for development. Konrad built their own Saleen engines, this was rumoured to be one of the reasons behind their reliability issues.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Dead-Eye

This one? Beautiful

(Sorry for the off-topic)

Yep , thats the baby .

[Dauer 962]

Originally Posted by carsten66

I think they do, at the last LMS race on the Nürburgring paddock I saw in addition to the Charouz trucks two Aston Martin Racing trucks and one Lola truck...

The numbers of trucks tells you really nothing about any kind of customer suupert. In this case, the entire team is run by AMR, Charouz trucks are moreless decoration and hospitality units.

In the ADAC GT Masters Hexis Racing coulnd´t enter the planned third DBRS9 at the Ring due to a lack of spare parts with Prodrive.....

[Dauer 962]

Originally Posted by JAG

Konrad built their own Saleen engines, this was rumoured to be one of the reasons behind their reliability issues.

They never built their engines by themselves, they always got the engines from a tuner. But he indeed changed the tuner from time to time and that was of the many reason of the unreliability.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

Course it's low risk, GM and Ford engines are ten a penny, it's simply a matter of making the best available.

Rallyings relevant as they've had strict homologation regs for decades, yet there's still freedom to build your own engines.

How often do teams/manufactuers make engine changes, engines aren't sealed once homologated, there's some freedom for development. Konrad built their own Saleen engines, this was rumoured to be one of the reasons behind their reliability issues.

First off, I think you should compare apples to apples, ie; GM, Acura, Aston Martin, Audi, Ferrari, Porsche, Peugeot. How many of these do you see letting loose of control of their product? None! It is not low risk to these entities.

As to your tuner reference, once again, how many of these do you see being tuned by outside sources? Zero, if they wish to retain any relationship with the Mfg!

L.P.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Its amazing just how far a check from Deiter Matschitz (Red Bull) will go .....

Im sure if he wanted , he could afford to put Micheal Schumacher in that car . His pockets are infinate to what he wants .... I used to work for him , and he is one hell of gentleman ..... nice man , he spent 50 to 60 million euro on restoring the only presureised Douglas DC-6B still in service today ..... VIP , the works . I worked on it too , anything you wanted ..... ask .

Oh I know that money is no object with Dieter. The real issue is how principled Henri wants to be. There is no doubt that he is fiercely nationalistic, and the question may be whether he wants to keep it his way or be more successful. I'm not totally sure that we can predict the outcome to that.

Anyway, the big IF right now is whether that rumour has legs. If it does, I would wager Henri would push for French pilots with Red Bull backing first. Of course, given the freedom of funds, perhaps he can just pick who he wants and they will find themselves with Red Bull backing...

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

First off, I think you should compare apples to apples, ie; GM, Acura, Aston Martin, Audi, Ferrari, Porsche, Peugeot. How many of these do you see letting loose of control of their product? None! It is not low risk to these entities.

As to your tuner reference, once again, how many of these do you see being tuned by outside sources? Zero, if they wish to retain any relationship with the Mfg!

L.P.

To be fair, a good chunk of those programs have much or all of the manufacturing work done by outside contractors. After all, AMR is really Prodrive and has little to do with Aston, the manufacturer, beyond factory blessing. The Corvette program is handled by Pratt and Miller and Katech, Ferrari's heavily subcontracted to Michelotto and N-Technology, etc. What they all do have in common, however, is that the factory has explicitly blessed them. On that note, you are definitely correct - and that is a critical point. They don't let just anyone run fast and loose with their name and branding, because they have a lot invested in that branding being connected to successful performance. In fact, if I were Aston, I would be a little worried right now about the impression some of the Prodrive GT cars are giving of the brand. Audi had the major embarrassment of the Swiss Spirit Lola project which I doubt they would be willing to repeat, and I'm sure Chevrolet/Corvette would not want the same issue to occur with their very successful brand.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

Course it's low risk, GM and Ford engines are ten a penny, it's simply a matter of making the best available.

Rallyings relevant as they've had strict homologation regs for decades, yet there's still freedom to build your own engines.

How often do teams/manufactuers make engine changes, engines aren't sealed once homologated, there's some freedom for development. Konrad built their own Saleen engines, this was rumoured to be one of the reasons behind their reliability issues.

Engines last two maybe three shorter races or one 1000 km ir 12 hour or one 24 hour before rebuild.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by cmk

To be fair, a good chunk of those programs have much or all of the manufacturing work done by outside contractors. After all, AMR is really Prodrive and has little to do with Aston, the manufacturer, beyond factory blessing. The Corvette program is handled by Pratt and Miller and Katech, Ferrari's heavily subcontracted to Michelotto and N-Technology, etc. What they all do have in common, however, is that the factory has explicitly blessed them. On that note, you are definitely correct - and that is a critical point. They don't let just anyone run fast and loose with their name and branding, because they have a lot invested in that branding being connected to successful performance. In fact, if I were Aston, I would be a little worried right now about the impression some of the Prodrive GT cars are giving of the brand. Audi had the major embarrassment of the Swiss Spirit Lola project which I doubt they would be willing to repeat, and I'm sure Chevrolet/Corvette would not want the same issue to occur with their very successful brand.

To be fair?
That these programs are mostly sourced and or ran by contractors is not at issue. What is at issue is, just whom, is allowed to do what, with the product. Which is covered, very well, in the latter part of the post, and is the "critical point".

L.P.

[ger80]

Originally Posted by Aslak Vind

The new Audi will be closed, I am told..

closed Audi = Bentley?

Pesca is talking about a 7L LMP1 motor with Red Bull sponsorship .

Red Bull sponsering a french team? Think its forbidden for the French to drink Red Bull?

[The Badger]

I think so , but obviously not to advertize it .

[FIRE]

Since this year Red Bull is allowed in France.

[ger80]

I have to tell my colleagues in France, maybe they start working faster than

[cmk]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

To be fair?
That these programs are mostly sourced and or ran by contractors is not at issue. What is at issue is, just whom, is allowed to do what, with the product. Which is covered, very well, in the latter part of the post, and is the "critical point".

L.P.

You said none of these projects were tuned by outside sources. I pointed out that, to be fair, many of them were - it's just that the outside sources are officially sanctioned by the manufacturer (eg. Katech with GM).

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by cmk

You said none of these projects were tuned by outside sources. I pointed out that, to be fair, many of them were - it's just that the outside sources are officially sanctioned by the manufacturer (eg. Katech with GM).

Sorry, I guess we have different thoughts on what constitutes an "outside source". As in this scenario, Katech is contracted to GM, and therefore an extension of. This not being an "outside source" in my thoughts. Now, if say; LAA took their car to, say; Oreca to tune, that would be an "outside source"!


L.P.

[JAG]

LAA could go to any number of engine builders and commission a GM 7l V8 for a P1, if they were intent on a GM V8, regardless of factory backing.

The question would be what is deamed necessary to be classed as an homologated GT1 engine, and benefit from the restrictor break, does it have to be identical to the C6.R V8, or just the same basic spec?

If LAA just want a factory backed GT1 motor they could look to Aston, Maserati, Ferrari, even Lamborghini if GM were unwilling to supply their GT1 engine.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

LAA could go to any number of engine builders and commission a GM 7l V8 for a P1, if they were intent on a GM V8, regardless of factory backing.

Ahhhh NO

The LS7 in the street corvettes and the GT3 corvettes is a differnt 7 Liter engine that LS7.r that Katech builds for Corvette Racing and LAA.

No parts are interchangable between the two. Heck the boar and stroke are even differnt. But both are 7 Liters.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

LAA could go to any number of engine builders and commission a GM 7l V8 for a P1, if they were intent on a GM V8, regardless of factory backing.

The question would be what is deamed necessary to be classed as an homologated GT1 engine, and benefit from the restrictor break, does it have to be identical to the C6.R V8, or just the same basic spec?

If LAA just want a factory backed GT1 motor they could look to Aston, Maserati, Ferrari, even Lamborghini if GM were unwilling to supply their GT1 engine.

How about what Steve Wesoloski has to say on it then!

but this doesn’t mean Wesoloski will be passing out Katech-built Corvette LMP1 engines to all those that come calling.

“We have had inquiries regarding using our GT1 engine in an LMP1 chassis but have not decided if we want to get into the business of selling hardware for those purposes.”

link


L.P.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Sorry, I guess we have different thoughts on what constitutes an "outside source". As in this scenario, Katech is contracted to GM, and therefore an extension of. This not being an "outside source" in my thoughts. Now, if say; LAA took their car to, say; Oreca to tune, that would be an "outside source"!


L.P.

Most definitely. I was not trying to be contrary - I think we both get what is going on, and where the issues lie when it comes to independent development. I was just trying to clarify in order to strengthen the argument to those who don't see it right away.

Wesoloski's quote seems to strengthen LAA's position - GM/Corvette Racing seems to be pretty impressed with the outfit, enough to risk association with the effort further through their pilots driving for the team on their own time. I bet if they decide to bite, it will be on a selective basis - and I bet LAA is pretty much top on that list!