[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[Mal]

Originally Posted by jc_nl

So it could be Audi, but to who?

Would love there to be a customer team in ALMS.

Also if there are no Pug customers cars where does that leave Oreca?

[Speed-King]

I'm not sure the term "customer team" describes Oreca's current relation with Peugeot correctly...

[chernaudi]

If Peugeot doesn't sell customer cars to private teams (which Oreca is essentially a customer team at this stage, and I believe that it's showing--very little discussion about Oreca's 2012 plans and a lack of spares for their old 908, when we know that Peugeot probably has tons of spares for the older car, caused them to withdraw from Imola), it's either some engine supply deal (which private team can afford a Pug diesel engine, unless Oreca is reviving the 02 LMP1 car), or someone has pondered an offer for 1-2 2011 spec Audi R18s, which if their deal with Peugeot has gone sour, Oreca could be a major tender. Oreca, remember, is a dealer and servicing partner for Audi with the R8 GT3 car, and even runs their own R8 in French GT racing. Oreca also has close ties with Audi and Volkswagen Group with various other programs, as well as PSA (at least until now).

Right now, no other team has the combination of resources and a lack of a clear short term future than Oreca has.

Pescarolo might be another tender, but I doubt that he can afford to run 1, let alone 2 R18s by himself as far as resources, but they have a proposed new LMP1 for 2012 that a Audi of Pug diesel engine could potentially fit in.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

I wouldnt be suprised if this was about engine supply only, other than perhaps ORECA, I cant see a privateer team with both the ability and/or the money (biggest problem) to run a full on 908 or R18 program. Also, if what Dagys says about ORECA is true, then I wonder what the future of their LMP program is?

I dont think Rebellion is going to dump the TMG engine after only one year and I think OAK is sticking with Judd, so the only teams I can think of involved in this is perhaps a new/evo Pescarolo 01 with a diesel engine or a team coming up from P2 with a diesel engine.

[alexkiller8]

mmm audi has a "strange" policy about customer support.... the r10's sold to the kolles team had the engine detuned and hadn't the updates of official team; they sold purposely an uncompetitive car to don't let them run for first positions (maybe they feared that a private r10 could be faster than the old r15). I doubt that some other team will buy an audi "poor customer's" car (even if audi will do a customer program).
Different was peugeot last year, the #4 oreca 908 HDi was fully supported with updates and official drivers in LMS races, it was like the forth car of the official team.
About future plans of peugeot nobody knows, surely if they'll start a customers program, oreca will be the first choice for sure... i don't think they still trust in pescarolo after 2009 epic fails...

[chernaudi]

Oreca, with factory support, ran the old 908 to great effect last year.

This is why I'm saying that they could be running R18's next year, especially if relations between de Chaunac and Peugeot have started to cool, if not sour--if Hughes gets brassed off at drivers who ding his cars unneccesarily, imagine how much he wanted to place his foot where the sun doesn't shine on Quesnel or whoever didn't sign off on 908 spares post LM.

There could be other things to consider, like if Peugeot offered Oreca a 908, it might not have KERS, while Audi may've offered to update the 2011 cars to 2012 specs--including their alleged hybrid system.

And we also have to consider a possible different angle, too, and this is purely speculation: Penske.

He was a leading tender for an Audi Sport ALMS program this year, until Audi of America pulled the plug in the 11th hour, and he definently had the resources and money to pull off a WEC and limited (or maybe full) ALMS season to get back into the swing of sportscar racing by running R18s next year. And I can't think of a better way to knock off the rust and him getting Timo and Romain back into the Penske fold, either. This is speculaiton, of course, and so is Oreca.

And we also have to be prepared for something from far left field. I'd classify the Penske deal if it would happen to be from left field, for example. We have to also consider things that are either unfathomable at this stage, as well as something that can come from basically no where.

We'll have to wait for the photo quoted in one of those tweets to come out, but it could be engine supply, or someone's got a proven Le Mans winning ride (or maybe two) for next year. That's about all we can count on at this stage as far as likely hood: Someone's gotten some Audi or Peugeot engines on contract, or someone's gotten ahold of a customer contract for an Audi R18 or two, or something completely unexpected.

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

mmm audi has a "strange" policy about customer support.... the r10's sold to the kolles team had the engine detuned and hadn't the updates of official team; they sold purposely an uncompetitive car to don't let them run for first positions (maybe they feared that a private r10 could be faster than the old r15). I doubt that some other team will buy an audi "poor customer's" car (even if audi will do a customer program).

I recall the customer R8s were very competitive with the right drivers in, even if they never really did go up against the factory team very often.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

mmm audi has a "strange" policy about customer support.... the r10's sold to the kolles team had the engine detuned and hadn't the updates of official team; they sold purposely an uncompetitive car to don't let them run for first positions (maybe they feared that a private r10 could be faster than the old r15). I doubt that some other team will buy an audi "poor customer's" car (even if audi will do a customer program).
Different was peugeot last year, the #4 oreca 908 HDi was fully supported with updates and official drivers in LMS races, it was like the forth car of the official team.
About future plans of peugeot nobody knows, surely if they'll start a customers program, oreca will be the first choice for sure... i don't think they still trust in pescarolo after 2009 epic fails...

The last two races Pescarolo has run a Peugeot (including Pug engine in 2003) they have had two of their worst runs, with the slow (but reliable) 2003 car as well as the disaster that was 2009, although I still cant see why people blame the pescarolo for the pit mishap.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by alexkiller8

mmm audi has a "strange" policy about customer support.... the r10's sold to the kolles team had the engine detuned and hadn't the updates of official team; they sold purposely an uncompetitive car to don't let them run for first positions (maybe they feared that a private r10 could be faster than the old r15). I doubt that some other team will buy an audi "poor customer's" car (even if audi will do a customer program).
Different was peugeot last year, the #4 oreca 908 HDi was fully supported with updates and official drivers in LMS races, it was like the forth car of the official team.
About future plans of peugeot nobody knows, surely if they'll start a customers program, oreca will be the first choice for sure... i don't think they still trust in pescarolo after 2009 epic fails...

Maybe Audi didn't expect Kolles to do much--his job at HRT may very well be in jeopardy at season's end in F1, and he's been fired/forced to resign from about every F1 team he's worked for, and I don't think that Audi held him in high regard even in DTM. They probably took his money, hoping that he'd become disenchanted, and fade away soon, which is what happened. I wouldn't consider anything that Kolles did as "top flight".

Audi, though, has a much closer relationship with Oreca though the R8 GT3 program, and maybe Audi has faith in Oreca to the point where they won't blatantly treat them as a "back up plan" or another team.

If you ask me, Oreca has been treated as a competitor rather than a teammate by Peugeot this year, and that might've irked Oreca enough to "visit the enemy".

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Audi, though, has a much closer relationship with Oreca though the R8 GT3 program, and maybe Audi has faith in Oreca to the point where they won't blatantly treat them as a "back up plan" or another team.

Oreca ran an R8 back in 2005 as well, of course, although I don't know if Audi thought they did a good job or not?

[alexkiller8]

sure oreca ran a playstation sponsored r8 in the past, but even if audi really will develope the hybrid/electric r18, won't never let use that "experimental" car to a private team, if not some years later

[chernaudi]

I don't think that the R18 hybrid will be seen as "experimental" by the time that Audi runs it in anger. Why do you think we've heard and seen nothing of the 101 and 102 R18s until 102 was made into a replica of the LM winner for the Goodwood Festival of Speed?

It's clear that Audi have been working on their hybrid system for a while, and Oreca might have a better chance of getting the newest technology from Audi than from Peugeot, who it seems doesn't even intend on selling any 908s to anyone for the foreseeable future.

There's also the Penske angle that I mentioned, though I doubt that it'll happen unless all the planets align and seems left field to me.

But then again, this whole rumor, if it comes true, could be left field.

However, the most likely scinerio is a top flight team with no concrete plans for 2012 gets an existing diesel LMP1 car (Oreca+Audi R18) or somone's gotten an engine deal with either Audi or Peugeot, or something that might seem pretty random.

[alexkiller8]

in my opinions MAYBE, MAYBE some granfathered r18 cars (hybrid or not and surely detuned) can be sold to private teams in 2014 when porsche will enter in the competition and maybe team joest will focus on porsche cars.

[carsten66]

Indeed it sounds to me from what is said that we will see an engine supply deal most likely... very probably at the moment several teams are looking about: Oreca, Quifel-ASM, Strakka... RML, Muscle Milk Motorsports?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by jc_nl

Not according to John Dagys, he mentions on twitter that Peugeot won't be offering there cars to customers.

So it could be Audi, but to who?

De Chaunac was quoted in Autosport prior to the season they could take a new 908, but it would only be delivered later in the season. At Le Mans he said again they were in talks with Peugeot for 2012.

He also mentioned the P1 02, at Le Mans numerous commentators mentioned this is the chassis Nissan will use, it may even have tested.

Zytek have also said they are working on a hybrid with a major manufactuer, and since said they are confident their relationship with Nissan will grow.

[alexkiller8]

Originally Posted by JAG

De Chaunac was quoted in Autosport prior to the season they could take a new 908, but it would only be delivered later in the season. At Le Mans he said again they were in talks with Peugeot for 2012.

He also mentioned the P1 02, at Le Mans numerous commentators mentioned this is the chassis Nissan will use, it may even have tested.

Zytek have also said they are working on a hybrid with a major manufactuer, and since said they are confident their relationship with Nissan will grow.

i suppose that oreca 03 uses the same chassis of "not fully" developed oreca 02.... that in my opinion is more or less an update of the old 01. Maybe the 02 project wasn't developed enough to run in this season, so oreca produced a "cheaper" version (oreca 03) to sell the cars to other teams, focusing them self on their old 909 HDi for the races and trying their own car at le mans. I think that oreca will use the next 02 for lmp1 (with a possible 908) and a customer program of 03 for lmp2 teams.

[JAG]

The current P2 uses the tub of the old P1, the new P1 is a coupe.

ORECA said the new P1 was put on hold because of the economic conditions, now it looks like the Nissan, ORECA, Zytek P2 partnership will step-up to P1.

[AGD]

Here's an interesting article about Raymond Narac and whether they will go WEC racing next year. He also has some pretty frank words about the pace of the Porsche.

http://www.endurance-info.com/versio...ance-7724.html

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Stefvh

http://www.draysonracingtechnologies...ollaboration-7

That's exciting news; an all electric car.

[chernaudi]

Interesting responses to Dagys' article last week in his "Weekly World of Sportscars" on Speed about the WEC and what it might mean for various regional championships:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...ar-revolution/

Oddly enough, he even posted my response.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Interesting responses to Dagys' article last week in his "Weekly World of Sportscars" on Speed about the WEC and what it might mean for various regional championships:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...ar-revolution/

Oddly enough, he even posted my response.

Some of these people appear to be living under a rock. But I think Jeff Easterling from Tampa has it right about the future. Some of these people appear to have turned it into ALMS vs Grand Am or seem to know nothing at all.

[JAG]

The finger can be pointed elsewhere, but both NA sportscar series, adopting different philosophys, and the regions top single seater championship, are all struggling.

Major reg changes usually happen when the supply of cars dry up, there's no shortage of cars for the ALMS and GA, there's a shartage of buyers.

[chernaudi]

As I wrote in my reply, it's a bit of a put-up or shut-up time for anything not WEC related, because that's where all the factory teams and private teams with a world-wide agenda (sponsors) want to go.

I really think that the roles that the ALMS and LMS have in this are unclear--are they feeder series, or stand alone series. If they're feeder series, they might be able to stay as is if they can get it to work (emphasis on that statement). If they're gonna be treated as stand alone series, maybe it's time to shake things up and carve their own niche like Grand Am has sort of done.

It remains to see what effect the WEC will have on sportscar racing as a whole, but this is a transitional period, and whoever handles the transition the best will survive the best, that much is clear.

[JAG]

The LMS class structure will change, but it's outlook on racing won't.

The ALMS has the same goals as the WEC, while the series may no longer be a priority for certain manufactuers, there's no reason to suggest they won't support semi-works efforts.

Carving out a niche is all well and good, but you may face the same problems as FIA GT1 and GA, i.e manufactuers reluctant to build cars for a specific series, when established P1, P2, GTE and GT3 cars are available.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Le Mans Series press release

The Le Mans Series teams will have priority to obtain an entry in the 24 Hours of Le Mans to complete the grid participating in the World Championship and also in the [other] two European rounds of the World Endurance Championship.

So it's two, then. I like that! hope that they rotate them between Silverstone, Spa and Italy (Monza, Mugello, Imola). I don't see any other place getting one, not even Hockeheim (with I vote for the Euro LMS).