[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[AGD]

Originally Posted by CTD

When different techonolgies is avalible a BoP makes sense, but when only petrol non hybrid is allowed, the BoP makes no sense, as in theory, the slowest and often cheapest car will dictate the pase of the others.

Right, I'd hate for (as an example) Nissan and HPD to have really competitive engines only to have them neutered just because whatever (for example) Bailey is running is garbage. And what if the slow P2s are slower than GT cars? Do all P2 cars then run at GT car pace? Well, that's the problem with BoP. It's very frustrating. I'm not even sure what these races mean when there is BoP.

[Deleted]

HPDs were raped for this year, so I guess it's Nissan's time to taste the artificiality now eh? But dear god I seriously hope nothing can top the P2 BoP farce we saw at Paul Ricard (& onwards) this year - it was just sad and ridiculous.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by Chiana

HPDs were raped for this year, so I guess it's Nissan's time to taste the artificiality now eh?

I'm a little surprised by you, Chiana. I figured you would have been the first to notice that the Judd-BMWs will probably be the engine (at least amongst the 3 that ran in 2011) that gains the most from a new BoP formula! I figured you would have had some thoughts about that!

I know this won't shock anyone, but I really don't know why P2 needs BoP. It's a cost-capped non-factory class. If your Judd sucks, go buy a Nissan (or whatever) for crying out loud. Ugh. I guess we have two LMPC classes now: one that physically exists and one that exists in spirit. At least the physically existing LMPC class has nice sounding rumbly engines.

[Deleted]

Sorry, apart from not really giving a damn about P2 I'm also trying to pay as little attention as possible to everything related to it now ALMS P2 is the only expection because bop formula or not, they desperately need protos

As dull as it is, LMPC is probably THE prototype class that offers real and honest racing in 2012, however I can't agree with you on one thing... that god damn muffler and restrictors make the Chevy V8 sound like a diesel or something

[Tim the Grey]

You don't like BoP, but you like a Spec Series?
Says it all, I guess. Stick a Chevvy in it, he will watch!

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by Tim the Grey

You don't like BoP, but you like a Spec Series?
Says it all, I guess. Stick a Chevvy in it, he will watch!

I don't really like LMPC (or GTC for that matter) as I've clearly stated a hundred times before, but the fact is that in spec class you don't have to waste time complaining about performance balancing.

What difference is there between, say, Porsche supercup and FIA GT3? Yes in Porkie series all the cars and engines will be the same, in GT3 not but what does that matter when they (in theory) attempt to reach the same via different weights, restrictors, tyre pressures etc? Whether you have a Lada or Ferrari under your belt doesn't really matter if Bop does it for you... the result in spec series is the same, expect you don't have to question whether the winning car had favourable BoP or not

[FordCosworthPanoz]

To be fair about BoP in LMP2, in the ALMS last year the Dyson Mazaerolas were running 50 kg lighter than the Muscle Milk Aston with increasingly bigger restrictors until Petit throughout the season in LMP1. So it certainly isn't anything new.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AGD

I know this won't shock anyone, but I really don't know why P2 needs BoP. It's a cost-capped non-factory class. If your Judd sucks, go buy a Nissan (or whatever) for crying out loud. Ugh.

It is not straightforward to switch from engine supplier during the season, so you screwed for a complete season. You are screwed even more if you bought a chassis that is not designed for other engines: the HPD chassis only supports the HPD engine and the Oak chassis of last year was designed for the Judd engine.

The problem is that LMP2 engines are designed for a certain price tag: i.e. try to get the best performance for the 75000 euro cost cap. This is where Nissan sort of cheated. They started from a Super GT engine that has been in development for many years and they did not have to include this past development cost in the price tag of the engine. HPD and Judd on the other hand had to start from scratch.

There is also the economy scale. Nissan had the biggest customer base. So they can spread the development cost over more customers and their parts can probably also be produced a bit cheaper.

Consequently without any BoP (we are talking a minor changes in restrictor size) every team would have to use the Nissan engine. Is this what you want?


BTW I bluntly ignored the fact that HPD probably made a bad engine and that it is unclear whether the ACO balanced the performance between turbo and NA LMP2 engines correctly.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

Consequently without any BoP (we are talking a minor changes in restrictor size) every team would have to use the Nissan engine. Is this what you want?

Sure, why not? If one engine is clearly better than all the others, only a moron would choose an alternative. We're not talking about very finite resources here. If every P2 team wanted a Nissan, they could probably get them. Besides, if the competition wants to get better, build better engines. I thought that is the whole philosophy of racing.

It is not straightforward to switch from engine supplier during the season, so you screwed for a complete season. You are screwed even more if you bought a chassis that is not designed for other engines: the HPD chassis only supports the HPD engine and the Oak chassis of last year was designed for the Judd engine.

Teams that buy proprietary equipment should live with the limitations. That's the story of the world. I realize that not everyone can be Level 5 and buy new equipment every other race, but teams have to be held accountable for bad decisionmaking. They should not go crying to the rulesmakers just because they screwed up. Now if the rulesmakers screwed up (like you mentioned above), that's a different story. P2 was pretty screwy even without the BoP with questionable cost-capping, questionable turbo rules, and questionable street basis. This just adds another layer of politics to an already overly political class.

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

To be fair about BoP in LMP2, in the ALMS last year the Dyson Mazaerolas were running 50 kg lighter than the Muscle Milk Aston with increasingly bigger restrictors until Petit throughout the season in LMP1. So it certainly isn't anything new.

Right, ALMS has been a BoP formula for quite some time now. However, I believe these rules are new for ACO P2 racing. I might be wrong about that. At least they are new from an explicit standpoint. It may have been happening behind the scenes in the past.

Originally Posted by Chiana

that god damn muffler and restrictors make the Chevy V8 sound like a diesel or something

Well, they sound ok during the ESPN3 qualifying coverage of the LMPC class. Perhaps the sound does not sound so good away from the close range mics.

[Tim the Grey]

They are OK the first lap you hear just one of them. Then it get's boring, and repetetive. Same noise, same time, every lap, from every car...

[lms]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

BTW I bluntly ignored the fact that HPD probably made a bad engine

But why? I thought that engine was pretty good and reliable. In 2010 strakka finished 5th overall at le mans and finished 1st at Hungaroring (okay many p1s broke in these races but thats another question) with a 3.4l v8, thats not too bad imho. And its said that the nissan engine was better this year because hpd engined cars were hurt by bop. Unless the 2010 engine is very different from the 2011 one.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by lms

Unless the 2010 engine is very different from the 2011 one.

The 2010 HPD P2 engine and the 2011 HPD P2 engines are totally different. The 2011 engine is a modified turbocharged minivan engine essentially. Ok, it's used in more exotic applications too like family sedans! As for the reasons why it struggled, bad turbo regs, the fact that it is a minivan engine going up against a much more race bred engine, and the fact that most HPD engines ran in non-cost-capped cars when most (all?) Nissan cars were cost-capped. There may be more to the story, but that's the main parts of it I think. The ACO may have overly "BoPed" the non-cost-capped specs knowing that the HPD chassis would be the main non-cost-capped competitor.

[gwyllion]

EDIT: AGD already explained the difference between the 2.8 V6 TT and 3.4 V8 NA engine.

[lms]

Thats too bad. So I guess the 2011 hpd engine wont be used next year? And the next p2 engine wont be a turbo, I guess, because of the bad bop it got.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by AGD

Sure, why not? If one engine is clearly better than all the others, only a moron would choose an alternative. We're not talking about very finite resources here. If every P2 team wanted a Nissan, they could probably get them. Besides, if the competition wants to get better, build better engines. I thought that is the whole philosophy of racing.

Judging from the announcements about 2012, teams (e.g., Oak) are migrating from Judd to Nissan.

However, when the teams signed their engine deal, they did not know the performance of the different packages. Their decision was probably mainly based on the reputation of the engine builder. Who could have predicted at the beginning of 2011 that the HPD engine would be massively down on power?

Originally Posted by AGD

Teams that buy proprietary equipment should live with the limitations. That's the story of the world. I realize that not everyone can be Level 5 and buy new equipment every other race, but teams have to be held accountable for bad decisionmaking. They should not go crying to the rulesmakers just because they screwed up.

When you select a tightly integrated chassis-engine package, you normally assume that this will be a benefit.

[gwyllion]

Originally Posted by lms

Thats too bad. So I guess the 2011 hpd engine wont be used next year? And the next p2 engine wont be a turbo, I guess, because of the bad bop it got.

No, the HPD LMP2 engine will still be used in 2012. Level 5 recently announced that they will stick to the HPD chassis-engine combination, albeit with an update chassis (ARX-03b instead of ARX-01d).

With some additional development the performance can probably be improved. However, the cast exhaust manifold was said to be a fundamental flaw in the engine package (see explanation here).

[AGD]

Originally Posted by gwyllion

When you select a tightly integrated chassis-engine package, you normally assume that this will be a benefit.

Normally, yes. Normally. The normal thought back in the early 1980s was that one could never go wrong buying an IBM computer even if they were more expensive. Tell that to the people who brought IBM PCjrs. Anyway, the P2 formula is locked in for a few years so from now on for the next few years teams should have a pretty good idea of what equipment is favorable and what isn't. It's up to them to make a good decision. The problem is that the ACO might step in and make something good into something bad or vice versa depending on their whims. How is that fair?

[ronnie peterson]

Anyone heard about TV deals yet?

[Juntos]

You lumpier now! It is Eurosport or nobody!

[JAG]

Eurosport signed a three year deal earlier this year, looks like there'll be streaming on the official site too.

I did notice Motors TV had an ILMC season review, perhaps highlights can be sold onto any broadcaster?

[Mal]

Originally Posted by JAG

Eurosport signed a three year deal earlier this year, looks like there'll be streaming on the official site too.

I did notice Motors TV had an ILMC season review, perhaps highlights can be sold onto any broadcaster?

Eurosport signed a 3 year deal with ILMC, I thought, technically this is now a different championship so is the deal still valid?

[ronnie peterson]

I really don't think that the deal signed for 3 years would pass onto WEC and continue for two more years, especially with the FIA being involved now.

Will try to keep you guys updated If I hear something.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by JAG

Eurosport signed a three year deal earlier this year, looks like there'll be streaming on the official site too.

I did notice Motors TV had an ILMC season review, perhaps highlights can be sold onto any broadcaster?

I noticed a "Mobil 1 Racing" show on a danish sport channel, this included everything (WEC, F1, IRC, WRC and so on), so reviews and highlights are apparently not part of the exclusivity of the rights holder.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Mal

Eurosport signed a 3 year deal with ILMC, I thought, technically this is now a different championship so is the deal still valid?

Seeing as it was signed with the ACO (who own the commercial rights to the WEC), only a month before the WEC announcement, I'd assume Eurosport were aware they were signing up for the WEC.

[Simmi]

Going from bad to worse in Bahrain today. Villages being bombarded with tear gas by riot police. A 16-year-old boy reportedly in critical condition. Bad times and not a happy New Year for that country.

Keep the Petit date exactly where it is.