LM24 2007 Le Mans entry list - Page 4

old man · 28 Dec 2006, 15:15 (Ref:1800599)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

But now the performance of the MC12 is a known quantity surely it could be allowed to race with appropriate restrictions so that it doesn't upset the apple cart. Besides the ACO has constantly tweaked the regs as and when it saw fit. If they want you to race, they'll give you a break. They could always invent another class for it if they wanted to.

OK but where do you stop "giving (teams) a break"? The engineering wizards are brilliant at stepping slightly outside the box to gain a small advantage and what you do for one team you have to do for others, it simply leads to chaos. If Fiat want to race the MC12 they must make it legal or offer it for a class where it fits.

The acknowledgement of the value of the FIA series by the addition of these two places is a real incentive to win the championship in 2007 but what about the teams that came second to the MC12 with a legal ACO spec car? Could they not argue that "if" they had been allowed to run with certain small mods they could have beaten the Vitaphone cars and so gained the entry?

I believe that giving small concessions is not possible for any organisers without problems later, we have it in ALMS where "performance balancing" has been done and it is not the best way to run the railway

HORNDAWG · 28 Dec 2006, 22:28 (Ref:1800796)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

I agree with you to a certain point. I agree with you completely when it comes to prototypes. But when it comes to 'road' cars then I think things are a bit different. With protos you're dealing with cars that are built specifically to the regulations solely for the purpose of racing. With modified 'road' cars you're dealing with apples and oranges and the regs will need to be adapted to allow for certain circumstances. Cars evolve, so must the regs. If the square peg doesn't fit the round hole, then get your knife out!

I don't know the complete history of the ACO vs Maserati thing, but it seems the ACO changed the rules as the Mazza was being built. Maybe they got wind of them trying to slip something in under the radar and took evasive action. I don't know, but that's my hunch and good on them if that is the case. But now the performance of the MC12 is a known quantity surely it could be allowed to race with appropriate restrictions so that it doesn't upset the apple cart. Besides the ACO has constantly tweaked the regs as and when it saw fit. If they want you to race, they'll give you a break. They could always invent another class for it if they wanted to.

So 4 classes of cars is not enough? And the constructors are aware of the rules and the changes.

L.P.

HORNDAWG · 28 Dec 2006, 22:29 (Ref:1800797)

Quote:

Originally Posted by old man

OK but where do you stop "giving (teams) a break"? The engineering wizards are brilliant at stepping slightly outside the box to gain a small advantage and what you do for one team you have to do for others, it simply leads to chaos. If Fiat want to race the MC12 they must make it legal or offer it for a class where it fits.

The acknowledgement of the value of the FIA series by the addition of these two places is a real incentive to win the championship in 2007 but what about the teams that came second to the MC12 with a legal ACO spec car? Could they not argue that "if" they had been allowed to run with certain small mods they could have beaten the Vitaphone cars and so gained the entry?

I believe that giving small concessions is not possible for any organisers without problems later, we have it in ALMS where "performance balancing" has been done and it is not the best way to run the railway

I agree.

L.P.

Hammerdown · 29 Dec 2006, 18:39 (Ref:1801387)

OK, this is my last attempt. Please bear with me!

First off, I agree that the MC12 was a deliberate attempt to homologate a race car as a road car and I'm glad the ACO took a stand against it. We're now a few years down the road and I think FIAT have largely paid the price for that.

I would like to see the MC12 at LM as long as it was suitably restricted. In FIA GT it was fairly dominant, but wasn't running against full works teams. All I'm suggesting is that it's not beyond the realms of possibility to balance the performance of the MC12 so that it is no faster than the non-works Astons and Corvettes, then if they win it will be on merit as a team, rather than having a car advantage. I always thought that this was the spirit of LeMans.

I'm sorry if some people have an apoplectic fit as soon as the words 'balancing' and 'performance' appear in close proximity, but this is something inherent in most racing regulations where production-based cars are involved. It has to be, as you're dealing with very different cars.

If a car is under the minimum weight limit, then it would have an advantage, which is 'balanced' by the addition of ballast, thus negating that advantage. Easy.

If a car is wider and longer than the max dimensions then yes it could be redesigned to comply. Maserati chose not to do that for whatever reason. (Pride I suspect.) Now the car in question is in private hands and to expect a privateer team to make those not insignificant modifications is asking a bit much. (This is where someone tells me that Vitaphone is a works outfit, no doubt!

) Surely it's easy enough to work out how much of an advantage is gained and then take appropriate action (wing size, restrictors, ballast etc) to negate that advantage. If I'm not mistaken, this is pretty much how the WTCC works. The rule makers are just trying to even the pitch.

Maybe Vitaphone wouldn't want to take up that 'offer'. Maybe the other GT1 privateers would be miffed, but you're never going to please everyone. Personally, I would just like to see it race at LeMans.

AU N EGL · 29 Dec 2006, 18:47 (Ref:1801393)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

Maybe Vitaphone wouldn't want to take up that 'offer'. Maybe the other GT1 privateers would be miffed, but you're never going to please everyone. Personally, I would just like to see it race at LeMans.

Or maybe if Vitaphone is a 'works' outfit maybe they dont want to comply with ACO rules. Better to win in a smaller race to promot X number of Wins for marketing then to race with competition and heaven forbid actully have competition and loose.

HORNDAWG · 29 Dec 2006, 20:37 (Ref:1801444)

Quote:

By Hammerdown
If a car is under the minimum weight limit, then it would have an advantage, which is 'balanced' by the addition of ballast, thus negating that advantage. Easy.

This is not performance balancing! This is making the car adhere to the class rules!

Performance balancing, is when an entity applying the same rules, is either superior or inferior, and a variance of the rules is applied to equalize them, to the rest of the class.Its all about the rules, that is where the "Spirit of LeMans" resides.
No one, has made any attempt to bring the car in question within the rules! Vitaphone knew when they decided to run it, that it did not comply with ACO rules. So the ACO is supposed to reward them, for telling(by lack of compliance) the ACO to stick it??? Would you, if someone treated you like that?

The team, is already being acknowledged by the ACO, by the invitation! It is up to the team, to enter something that is within the rules. As is expected of everyone else!

L.P.

The Badger · 2 Jan 2007, 19:41 (Ref:1804197)

I dont want to see the MC12 at Le Mans cuz it aint legal , but I hope that Vitaphone take up the offer and hopefully run an S7R instead . Can they do that ?

captain crunch · 2 Jan 2007, 20:09 (Ref:1804212)

Yes, they can run any car they like as long as it's an ACO-legal GT1. I'd've been happier if the invites had gone to the top two ACO-legal cars in each class of FIA GT, so Zakspeed would have got the second invite. The MC12 really ought to have been put in G2 from day one, anyway.

Francesco · 2 Jan 2007, 20:33 (Ref:1804227)

vitaphone is linked to Maserati and the FIAT group... they could have raced Alfas in 2007 WTCC but they decided to remain with Maserati so anything that has not a Ferrari/Maserati badge is out of their program for GT Racing... the only possibility for LM would have been to rent a 430 GT2 or the old 575...

The Real DMN · 2 Jan 2007, 21:09 (Ref:1804249)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francesco

vitaphone is linked to Maserati and the FIAT group... they could have raced Alfas in 2007 WTCC but they decided to remain with Maserati so anything that has not a Ferrari/Maserati badge is out of their program for GT Racing... the only possibility for LM would have been to rent a 430 GT2 or the old 575...

Or the new Prodrive designed F550 Evo?

HORNDAWG · 2 Jan 2007, 21:37 (Ref:1804269)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francesco

vitaphone is linked to Maserati and the FIAT group... they could have raced Alfas in 2007 WTCC but they decided to remain with Maserati so anything that has not a Ferrari/Maserati badge is out of their program for GT Racing... the only possibility for LM would have been to rent a 430 GT2 or the old 575...

Why not a Maserati Gran Sport GT-1 in 07? It would give Alfa a lot of current data on front eng/ rear drive for the supposed upcoming Alfa 8c Compitizione GT-2? effort in 08.

Quote:

from The Real DMN
Or the new Prodrive designed F550 Evo?

Also a good candidate. But do you suppose they might be so much cannon fodder as Prodrive is campaigning Aston's at the moment. How willing, is Prodrive, to be beat by their own product?? I'm not sure they are.

L.P.

**FIRE** · 2 Jan 2007, 21:43 (Ref:1804278)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Why not a Maserati Gran Sport GT-1 in 07? It would give Alfa a lot of current data on front eng/ rear drive for the supposed upcoming Alfa 8c Compitizione GT-2? effort in 08.

There were rumours about a GT1, see:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....&postcount=290

Since then never heard anything about it.

The Real DMN · 2 Jan 2007, 22:44 (Ref:1804324)

Quote:

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Also a good candidate. But do you suppose they might be so much cannon fodder as Prodrive is campaigning Aston's at the moment. How willing, is Prodrive, to be beat by their own product?? I'm not sure they are.

L.P.

Very good point, but lining up along side the Prodrive Aston team this year will be the Labre and BMS works Astons. All have a shot, so that situation may come about anyway. I doubt Prodrive will make/sell many more Astons, so an F550 Evo doing well might boost their coffers more.

Of course this is only VERY wild specualtion.

HORNDAWG · 2 Jan 2007, 23:44 (Ref:1804367)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Real DMN

Very good point, but lining up along side the Prodrive Aston team this year will be the Labre and BMS works Astons. All have a shot, so that situation may come about anyway. I doubt Prodrive will make/sell many more Astons, so an F550 Evo doing well might boost their coffers more.

Of course this is only VERY wild specualtion.

And the Russian Age Racing #62 Aston did split the Prodrive Aston's at Lemans in 06. But ??

L.P.

mirkob · 3 Jan 2007, 08:25 (Ref:1804548)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francesco

vitaphone is linked to Maserati and the FIAT group... they could have raced Alfas in 2007 WTCC but they decided to remain with Maserati so anything that has not a Ferrari/Maserati badge is out of their program for GT Racing... the only possibility for LM would have been to rent a 430 GT2 or the old 575...

Something like this ?

old man · 3 Jan 2007, 10:59 (Ref:1804985)

Don't you actualy rent the 550s, I am sure Care would be happy to do that again for LM

**PascaLM** · 7 Jan 2007, 21:53 (Ref:1809107)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

Maybe Vitaphone wouldn't want to take up that 'offer'. Personally, I would just like to see it race at LeMans.

I saw the Maserati MC12 at Magny-Cours in 2005. Nice car, but...
The MC12 shouldn't be accepted at LM because its width exceeds 2000mm.
Rules have to be respected. And the designers of the Enzo didn't ignore that.

The Badger · 8 Jan 2007, 11:59 (Ref:1809500)

I thought the Larbre example was owned by them , or not ?

paul-collins · 8 Jan 2007, 14:37 (Ref:1809666)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

If a car is wider and longer than the max dimensions then yes it could be redesigned to comply. Maserati chose not to do that for whatever reason. (Pride I suspect.)

Not pride, just lack of money. The drivetrain is from the Enzo (as PascaLM pointed out), which was already too wide; Maserati, as a separate financial entity from Ferrari, didn't have the resources to re-engineer it. they were able to shorten the car to legal length for ALMS and narrow it some, but not to the required 2m.

I loved seeing the car in 2005, but I agree that it should not be allowed into Le Mans.

For that matter, I think it's a joke that Vitaphone got an automatic invite running a non-legal car while Peterson/White Lightning did not get one for winning PLM with a legal ACO car adjusted per IMSA. But anyway...

HORNDAWG · 8 Jan 2007, 17:53 (Ref:1809793)

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Not pride, just lack of money. The drivetrain is from the Enzo (as PascaLM pointed out), which was already too wide; Maserati, as a separate financial entity from Ferrari, didn't have the resources to re-engineer it. they were able to shorten the car to legal length for ALMS and narrow it some, but not to the required 2m.

I loved seeing the car in 2005, but I agree that it should not be allowed into Le Mans.

For that matter, I think it's a joke that Vitaphone got an automatic invite running a non-legal car while Peterson/White Lightning did not get one for winning PLM with a legal ACO car adjusted per IMSA. But anyway...

I would have to agree, especially that PWL got the short end of the stick!

L.P.

Hammerdown · 8 Jan 2007, 19:45 (Ref:1809863)

Ah yes, see what you mean now! I knew it was based on the Enzo, but assumed it had been widened and that the Enzo was OK (but at 2035mm it certainly isn't). When someone said the drivetrain was outside the regs I thought they meant in some operational way, not that the whole thing was just too darn wide.

I'm still reckon Maserati/Ferrari/Fiat could have changed it if they wanted to.

And yes, a bit smelly of the ACO not to invite PWL.

mariantic · 8 Jan 2007, 19:53 (Ref:1809874)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerdown

And yes, a bit smelly of the ACO not to invite PWL.

Petersen White Lightning may not have been invited, but that does not mean they won't get an entry if they have applied through the normal channels.

Mariantic

paul-collins · 8 Jan 2007, 20:14 (Ref:1809892)

True enough, and it may be a blessing in disguise anyway. How much is the auto entry to take up? I forget, but it's something like 28k euros, whereas the application for the regular invite is 5k up front, the remainder when you get accepted - at the end of March... Last year they found support in the form of Tracy Krohn joining them, which says they didn't want to allocate a full LM budget on their own. Perhaps that's changed now, perhaps not.

I can't believe that ACO would deny P/WL an entry, given that they're one of the top GT2 teams on either continent (based on results in the ALMS, and my belief that GT2 is stronger in North America - perhaps not as much as in previous years though).

AU N EGL · 8 Jan 2007, 20:37 (Ref:1809910)

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Last year they found support in the form of Tracy Krohn joining them, which says they didn't want to allocate a full LM budget on their own. Perhaps that's changed now, perhaps not.

The PWL/ Krohn budget of one car at Lemans in 2006 was $960,000 plus drivers saleries.

Bit of change for any team

rdjones · 11 Jan 2007, 17:54 (Ref:1812509)

A quick bit of news from the Autosport Show - The RML MG Lola will be driven by Mike Newton, Tommy Erdos and Andy Wallace. Also Tom Milner will share one the LNT Panoz's with Tom Kimber-Smith.

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