Are Jag incapable?

Super Tourer · 15 Apr 2001, 16:05 (Ref:80802)

I don't normally have much sympathy with Irv, but that Jag looks terrible. In qualifying the car was all over the place, they look a complete handfull.

How does Jag expect to amke progress if its drivers have to spend every lap merely trying to keep the car on the road.

Both retired, despite Rahal reckoning they had found reliablity.

Slow and unreliable - This was supposed to be THE year, I am wondering if they have the strength in depth to turn it around. Currently they are a team going nowhere... I can hear the Ford bosses tapping their fingers on the table already.......

Damon · 15 Apr 2001, 16:13 (Ref:80807)

Don't be suprised if the Jags aren't on the grid in 2003 or maybe even 2002...

angst · 15 Apr 2001, 16:31 (Ref:80815)

They should never ave been on the grid in the first place in my opinion. Ford dumped on themselves big time with this farce. Minardi could have been given decent engines when their cars were performing so well, but politically Jaguar could not be outrun by a small outfit like Minardi. Stewart were making good progress and all that was thrown away with the takeover. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

As supertourer said the car was absolutely terrible in qualifying, it was all over the road.

**Bononi** · 15 Apr 2001, 17:07 (Ref:80827)

I think FORD won't give up that easily. With the big bucks they can change EVERYTHING and start all over from scratch.
You can wait for changes as soon they find they are getting nowhere. In my opinion, something is happening behind the stage. And then we'll see.

Orange · 15 Apr 2001, 18:38 (Ref:80844)

I agree....

Ford isn't going to let the Jag name be dragged through the mud forever... Its going to take more money and hard work... In 2-4 years, instead of being off the grid, Jag will be seriously improving.

Minardi fan · 15 Apr 2001, 21:49 (Ref:80903)

Jaguar won't last much longer. Poor car, a poor driver line-up, and way too much management moving around all leads to a team not going anywhere. FORD: YOU SHOULD HAVE GIVEN THOSE ENGINES TO MINARDI. D'uh.

Minardi fan · 15 Apr 2001, 21:59 (Ref:80911)

Speaking of incapable, has anyone else noticed how similar the Prost and Jaguar chassis' are? This could explain why both are performing so abysmally - in particular Prost.

DancingMachine · 15 Apr 2001, 22:07 (Ref:80916)

well i think jaguar will last..they just stepped in..give then a year or 2 and they will put up a better show.

EERO · 16 Apr 2001, 03:12 (Ref:81004)

It is ridiculous to think Ford will settle for anything less than success. Irvine may not be the driver to lead them there, but Rahal and Lauda know what it takes to win, are real racers and will get all the right pieces in place.
Last season was a huge mistake but they will recover from it.Give it a couple of seasons.

Besides M-fan, had Ford bought Minardi, they really wouldn't be Minardi any longer, would they? How sad that to save the thing we love, we must destroy it....

senna12 · 16 Apr 2001, 03:28 (Ref:81011)

I'm not sure of the horsepower numbers of the engine, but I don't seem to be seeing many complaints in print about it, and judging by the look of the car at Imola, they have a big chassis problem. There seem to be 3 or 4 aero engineers who have it together, and some others for whom aerodynamics was not their specialty. Time for Bobby, or Niki, to consider some serious poaching. Ferrari is the perfect example of what unlimited buckets of dollars can achieve, and although Jaguar has a healthy budget, they're gonna have to take it to the next level to compete with the (now) big three.

Valve Bounce · 16 Apr 2001, 04:15 (Ref:81021)

I rememer this thread came up last year, and also during the off season, when I said that Jaguar lacked focus. It is sad that all that money has not turned a good team (Stewart) into a great team. They could have simply changed the name but kept Stewart as CEO, and that team would have been near hte top by now. Instead, they wanted to create an image, sell lots of merchandise, and jazz up the Jaguar name. Disaster. Quite honestly, if Minardi could be that good without any testing and with a lousy engine, think where Minardi woud be with lots of money, testing time last year, and a decent factory engine.

**Peter Mallett** · 16 Apr 2001, 07:42 (Ref:81046)

I watched some onboard views with Burti in qualifying. The car had understeer into corners and power oversteer out of them. It wasn't confined to fast or slow corners, it was everywhere. That suggests serious chassis problems. I don't believe its just aerodynamics.

As to commitment. Ford can't be seen to lose face. They'll have to do something very quickly.

Piquet · 16 Apr 2001, 22:01 (Ref:81286)

I am a fan of Irvine but I doubt he is the man for the job of improving the Jag. I think they need someone like TGF to step in and make the car competitive within a few seasons. I wonder if that could happen? One thing for sure - Ford will not give up without a fight !

**Bononi** · 16 Apr 2001, 22:11 (Ref:81295)

Tell me something I don't know.
Is Irvine at this stage the right man ? Does he can pass to the engineers what is wrong and provide ideas to make it better ?
They need a driver like that. If Irvine/Burti can't do this job, they should get off.
I think Lauda and Rahal, have this sense, and soon we'll see.

Super Tourer · 17 Apr 2001, 07:07 (Ref:81404)

I'm not so sure about Ford hanging in there. I reckon they thought they would p*** F1 with all their might and cash.

The first sniff that Ford think Jag's brand is being diminished by their performance and the marketing men will pull the rug from under the project.

Remember these car brands spend millions putting exactly the right profile across in their marketing and advertising.
To see your core values of speed and reliability, going up in smoke every other weekend , infront of a worldwide TV audience - is not something that Ford will put up with for long.

Also the Jag team is on its 3rd team boss in 2 years (JYS, Nasser & Rahal).

angst · 17 Apr 2001, 08:47 (Ref:81420)

EERO, I don't think anybody was suggesting that Ford buy Minardi out. Ford have had many years of success as an engine supplier, and to have carried on in this way would have allowed them to supply better engines to a team that was doing well (ie Minardi last year) without it having an adverse effect on their marketing, which it does with Jaguar. Stewart would have been a better team than Jaguar, they were making good progress before the takeover.
If anything the improved results, and continuing engine supply would have taken a lot of the doubt out of Minardi's future. They may even have kept the Telefonica sponsorship with improved results. As I say I believe Ford have well and truly shot themselves in the foot with Jaguar.

senna12 · 18 Apr 2001, 03:02 (Ref:81824)

Super Tourer and angst have summed up the situation perfectly. So.......how long do you think Ford will put up with this, at 170 million odd U.S. dollars per year?

Minardi fan · 18 Apr 2001, 22:52 (Ref:82136)

Ford should get out now - Jaguar are diminishing their reputation every time one of their cars goes out on the track.

Did Ford not realise the kudos they would have gained from being THE engine manufacturer to bring Minardi to the midfield???

Big mistake guys...

MichaelC · 18 Apr 2001, 23:31 (Ref:82149)

I think I have to disagree there, M-Fan. Ford wouldn't want to bring Minardi to the midfield, they'd want to bring them to the front.

But what they really want is a Ford at the front, not a Minardi-Ford. Therefore they'll just keep pouring more and more money in until they win.
Take the BTCC as an example. The first years they ran the Mondeos (1995), bad wasn't the word, they were only just keeping ahead of the privateer teams. They tested and tested and spent and spent until they won the championship last year.

Exactly the same will happen here. They'll just keep working away and spending more and more until they win.

GURRYP · 19 Apr 2001, 00:33 (Ref:82157)

There will always be someone at the back of the grid, you can't all be on pole & win races.

Wrex · 19 Apr 2001, 02:17 (Ref:82170)

Quote:

Originally posted by MichaelC
They'll just keep working away and spending more and more until they win.

Ahh, the ferrari program

EERO · 19 Apr 2001, 02:18 (Ref:82171)

Quote:

Originally posted by angst
EERO, I don't think anybody was suggesting that Ford buy Minardi out. Ford have had many years of success as an engine supplier, and to have carried on in this way would have allowed them to supply better engines to a team that was doing well (ie Minardi last year) without it having an adverse effect on their marketing, which it does with Jaguar.

Actually, angst, our dear little Minardifan HAS BEEN suggesting this for awhile now.
Ford made the correct choice buying out JYS, took some false steps last season but WILL get back on track. My point was that, (and has been) that Minardi would cease to be "Minardi" if any major manufacturer took them over.

Jaguar's primary market is the US. However most American's don't know what Formula 1 is, few potential Jaguar owners know what it is and even fewer are aware that Jaguar is now a part of it. As the team finds its feet, the major market to which it is marketed remains oblivious.
Once they achieve results, they can point them out in print and the "WORLD" will be none the wiser.

History tells us that Ford have ahd a continued presence in F1 since 1967, and a long tradtion of success in all forms of racing. It is naive to think that two bad seasons as Jaguar F1 are going to signal the end of Ford's eforts.

angst · 21 Apr 2001, 10:16 (Ref:83001)

EERO, I do apologise.Now that you mention it MFan did suggest Ford should take over Minardi.
I will extrapolate my views here as briefly as I can.
The problems Ford/Jaguar are facing are the same problems that blighted Renault when they ran their own F1 team (a lesson they seem to have forgotten). The problem any major company faces, as opposed to a 'small' team like Williams or McLaren is the inertia involved in decision making. Boards of Directors and committees are not conducive to the quick decision making that F1 requires. It's the same problem that Ferrari had to contend with as well, after the death of Enzo until the arrival of Jean Todt. There needs to be someone who has absolute authority there and then. Someone who is ultimately responsible for the team. Bobby Rahal is saying now that he is feeling the pressure of being in charge at Jaguar. Why? - well how many management changes have there already been? Stewart was run by Stewart, that's where the buck stopped. He had responsibilities to Ford and his sponsors but equally he could make demands of Ford with regards to what the team needed and he made the decisions without fear of being over-ruled or waiting for ratification from above.
That is why I believe Ford have shot themselves in the foot. BMW and Mercedes get plenty of publicity from their part in Williams and McLarens success, and Ford could have been taking advantage of this with a team(s) they supplied.

Valve Bounce · 21 Apr 2001, 10:25 (Ref:83008)

Angst, I fully agree.

Airhead · 21 Apr 2001, 10:27 (Ref:83009)

Well a few weeks ago people like me were complaining how Ferrari were dominating the world of F1 with TGW firmly at the wheel guiding their course.

When you look at the abysmal results at Jaguar, remember that Ferrari with all that money, TGW and a cast of thousands including the best talent in every area of F1 endeavour took what, six long years to win the World Drivers Championship and five for the Constructors Championship. There's hope for Jag even if Fast Eddie isn't a patch on TGW.