going 1 lap longer.

[sonic]

James allen was baffled (yeah so what else is new?) as to how trulli leapfrogged Ralf and pulled a 2 second gap on him after the first round of pitstops.

But its pretty logical to me. Trulli got an extra lap of low fuel running in - whilst ralf was on full tanks. Now there is no new tyre benifit, that loss you face in coming in early is really really direct.

If Ralf had pitted a lap after Trulli in the 2nd stops, he would have leapfrogged him back.

Being able to go just one lap longer seems really important now, or is it just me?

[jb59892]

I think you are right, going one lap longer is very, very important now.

I think Trulli is a better driver than Ralf though and this explains the difference more than running an extra lap on low fuel levels in this case

[Kicking-back]

It's not as important if your car isn't quick enough to be there!

[Dani Filth]

if it's the same team/car . it should be quick enough

[BootsOntheSide]

The chances are that Ralf would enver have been ahead of Trulli int he early stage of the race if he hadn't ran lighter in qualifying 2 in any case - in clear air the Toyota was fasterin Jarno's hands than in Ralf's. In essence, Ralf had a small advantage of having 1 lap's less of fuel for Q2 and for each of the early laps, while Jarno had a big advantage for one lap of being ultra-light while Ralf's car was at its heaviest.

[Adam43]

It is very important. A lap with no fuel and tyres at the right operating temperature is much better than a fully laden lap.

Although it's relative importance has changed recently with the parc ferme regs. A few years ago we used to see, especially at places like Monza, a see who would blink first situation. At Monza there was a huge advantage to who had the biggest tank, because the speed penalty for a heavy car wasn't as bad as elsewhere.

Parc Ferme reduced this advantage a little, because the extra fuel not only hurt your race pace in the early laps, but it also hurt you qualifying pace. However this year the first qualifying session is run with little fuel and hence the effect on your grid slot of filling your tank of the race has been diluted.

[BootsOntheSide]

I thought the main distinguishing factor at Monza ws more that tyre wear was low, than that fuel loads weren't significant? Either way, it will be intriguing to see which strategies are adopted - perhaps someone will try to one-stop, especialyl if there are af ew laps behind the safety car

[Adam43]

You could have something there Boots. Whatever for this year at Monza you can factor out tyre wear. So that already pushes it more towards the situation we are discussing.

[touringlegend]

Perhaps the "1 lap longer" reason, and perhaps Ralf isn't as good at entering the pit bay as Jarno is ?

[Kicking-back]

And Trulli's flambe lost no time either!

[f1_carzy]

Ralf's pitstops were a wee bit longer than Trulli's; that could also have added Trulli's advantage. Of course running one lap longer on low fuel is a significant advantage!

[Don K]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

The chances are that Ralf would enver have been ahead of Trulli int he early stage of the race if he hadn't ran lighter in qualifying 2 in any case - in clear air the Toyota was fasterin Jarno's hands than in Ralf's. In essence, Ralf had a small advantage of having 1 lap's less of fuel for Q2 and for each of the early laps, while Jarno had a big advantage for one lap of being ultra-light while Ralf's car was at its heaviest.

I don't think there can be a lot of difference between the amount of fuel Ralf had and the amount of fuel Jarno had, as Jarno made his pit stop exactly when Ralf came out of the pits.

And when their second pit stops approached, Ralf was clearly faster than Jarno.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

In essence, Ralf had a small advantage of having 1 lap's less of fuel for Q2 and for each of the early laps, while Jarno had a big advantage for one lap of being ultra-light while Ralf's car was at its heaviest.

In that case, I would have expected Ralf to be faster during the first stint, and Jarno to be faster during the second stint.

But during the race, I think Trulli was faster than Ralf during the first stint (closing the gap before the first pit stop), and Ralf was faster during the second stint (closing the gap before the second pit stop).

[Dani Filth]

Ralf lost a little in the first stint behind Alonso . and Trulli recovered from a few seconds behind . and so ralf lost the posibility to get in front of him ..

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

Perhaps the "1 lap longer" reason, and perhaps Ralf isn't as good at entering the pit bay as Jarno is ?

Here is the data.

First stop. All data in seconds

Driver    Jarno     Ralf
In-lap    80.169   81.556
Out-lap 103.123 101.918
Both**  183.292 183.474
pitlane   26.330   25.539

Track*   156.962 157.935

*Track is the time spent on the in and out lap minus the stop time.
**Both is the total time for the in and out laps.
Gap from RS to JT lap before pitstops: -0.703
Gap from JT to RS lap after pitstops: 0.638

So Jarno was only 0.2s quicker over his in or out lap. Off the point a little, but actually he did well on the track part (1s quicker than Ralf), but lost more time in the pitlane.

Back to the main point. He was only 0.2s quicker than Ralf on the in and out laps but turned a 0.7s deficit into a 0.6s lead! Obviously the reason is in the lap times:

Ralf and Trulli completed both their stops over a three lap period (laps 24-26). Now the above has compared the in and out laps of both. This was lap 24/25 for Ralf and 25/26 for Trulli and those were only about 0.2s different. When Ralf was on his in lap (24) Trulli did a full lap with little fuel and when Trulli was on his out lap Ralf did a full lap on heavy tanks. Lets compare Trulli's lap 24 to Ralf's lap 26

Trulli while Ralf pitted: 77.777s
Ralf while Trulli pitted: 78.936s

and Trulli says thanks!

Well that is what we have known, but I was interested in seeing the numbers.

[Marbot]

Ah yes,but what was the wind speed on the main straight during their in and out laps.

[Rick]

I think it was actually Brundle who seemed perplexed how Trulli was so far in front - which amazed me!
When you could change tyres, if you came in earlier at least you had fresh rubber to possibly mitigate the extra fuel ( this seemed to depend a bit on where/when), but now as long as you are on the end of a "train" and keep going you will end up in front.
Particularly when two teammates are running together, I've been using a "rule of thumb" that if the guy behind is running longer he wants to be within 2 seconds for every lap more he is running (i.e. if he is going two more laps, if he is within 4 seconds he is in with a chance). Seems pretty close.

This has become the key to the races now (unfortunately!) and why the starts are critical.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Ah yes,but what was the wind speed on the main straight during their in and out laps.

About 1.7m/s according to the live timing archive on F1.com. Unfortunately the data isn't accurate enough (or labelled well enough) to distinguish individual laps (or gusts of wind). At the time of the Toyota stops it seemed to vary from 1.5 to 1.9m/s.

The maximum for the race was 4.2m/s and the minimum 0.6m/s (I assume this is the magnitude of the wind, irrespecive of direction). The information on the direction of the wind is sketchy as it doesn't record this change. The last recorded data showed the wind blowing about 30 deg to the left on the main straight when looking against the direction of the track.

[climb]

Excuse me, but as I don't think teams overcharge cars , I guess that, having to pit earlier, Ralf must have started lighter of fuel, so he should have taken advantage of it in the 23 laps before pitting, am I wrong?

[Dani Filth]

he did have an advantage .. but then we got behind Alonso . and lost it ..

[sonic]

Interesting stuff. cheers guys.

Do we know who has the most fuel efficient engine then? There is clearly a huge advantage to be had out of fuel economy.

Is that why schu has been so slow in his early stints? running a real eco-setting, and then cranking it up for low fuel elements.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by climb

Excuse me, but as I don't think teams overcharge cars , I guess that, having to pit earlier, Ralf must have started lighter of fuel, so he should have taken advantage of it in the 23 laps before pitting, am I wrong?

To certain extent. However 23 laps of one lap less fuel shows itself in a much different way to one lap with 23 laps less fuel. If yo are stuck behind someone and have the extra lap you have a great opportunity to jump them. You can argue that Ralf should have pulled out 0.1s, or so, a lap. However many things can happen in those 23laps to lose that time you've built up - escpecially if someone gets on your six.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by climb

Excuse me, but as I don't think teams overcharge cars , I guess that, having to pit earlier, Ralf must have started lighter of fuel, so he should have taken advantage of it in the 23 laps before pitting, am I wrong?

No.
Toyota cannot let both cars pit during the same lap.
So they had to choose one car to come in first.
If there would have been a difference in strategy, I would not expect the cars to come in during consecutive laps.

However, I do agree that the fact that they chose to let Ralf pit first suggests that Trulli probably was *not* running lighter than Ralf.

[Mark Edwards]

I suspect they brought Ralf in earlier simply to get Jarno out ahead after the stops as he's well above Ralf in the world championship. Same constructor points, but Jarno loses out less to Alonso.
What do mean team orders!!!

[BootsOntheSide]

If that's what happened Mark, it's a shame Jarno outperformed Ralf 4-0 in the races, 4-1 in grid positions and 9-1 in individual qualifying sessions up until that point. If they have to favour one driver, who's it going to be?