Paid Officials

[Chronicle]

I haven't been on for a few days, and I wanted to respond to the paid officials thread, but due to a problem poster the thread got locked, so I would like to continue the discussion here:

Originally posted by single keel

As soon as you pay officials, you run into occupational health & safety issues, not to mention the mountain of paperwork...

This is not correct single keel, I have worked as a OH&S Professional and taught OH&S, and the law does not differentiate between paid and volunteer work. If what you are saying is correct how do the thousands of volunteer fire fighters and SES people get on? (and I have been one of these as well)

As I also 'volunteer' at a race circuit, what "mountain of paperwork" are you talking about?

[Hybrid]

I reckon it would be great to pay all officials, just don't know how. The only sport I know of which does is Netball where every umpire ect is paid per game. Maybe we should contact all the netball nazi mums out there to learn their secret.

[Wrex]

Moved to Marshals forum.


I dont think anyone would disagree that Marshals deserved to be paid, the question is who is going to pay them?

Racers are already bleating about entry fee's, Track owners the same. The only option I can think of is sponsorship. Maybe a sponsor's logo could appear on all the officals clothing?

[Chronicle]

I personally don't believe paying people is going to make them perform any better, it's just easier to put accountabilities in place.

I don't get paid, but I still put 100% into what I do at the circuit, but that is a personality trait, and not everyone has the passion, being paid doesn't mean it is going to happen either, we have all worked with people who slack off on the boss' time in our real jobs.

[Wrex]

Without doubt it is done for 'the love of it', not cash. However I'm sure there can be substantial 'out of pocket' expenses that go with it.

While people keep volunteering, payment will not materialise. It will only be when they run out of top blokes/girls that they look at it seriously.

[Stephen Green]

We have had this conversation/discussion many times before and it always comes back to the same answer, marshals do what they do because it is their hobby and because of their love of motorsport. There are all sorts of arguements about whether equipment or overals could/should be sponsored and as I said above, the subject has been discussed on many occasions before.

Feel free to continue this thread but please take into consideration previous threads...

[Andrew Hornsey]

Stephen, as we know the number of marshals is falling. People are leaving because of greater pressure on their spare time. For some people, the idea of being paid may help keep them, or even bring them back into the fold.

I myself had always thought bad of paid marshals in terms of enthusiasm etc, but having worked for nearly 8 years now paying people to marshal, I think I can see some benefits.

To be honest, I think it is more of a half way house that is needed. Unlike Doctors, who can get paid quite handsomly for being at races so should be happy, I think that marshals could benefit from a little more than they already recieve. Overalls, boots etc could be supplied by the circuits if you marshal more than a set number of days for them - that gets rid of one cost.

The clubs could look at where the money goes, and a small rise in entry fee could help fund lunch and breakfast, thus saving the marshal more money.

I am sure there are many more ideas, but I have to get on with some work now!

Andrew

[Stephen Green]

Andrew, I take your points but the circuits will not provide overals as we don't work for them, we work for the organising clubs. As for increased entry fees, I think thats the last thing the sport needs just now as the already high cost of racing is driving (excuse the pun) drivers away from participating.

I think it would be a good idea if some of the organising clubs were able to get overals sponsored as have the BMMC in the past and I'm not sure whether the BARC overals are subsidised or not.

The problem with paying marshals is you get into the realms of National Insurance and Income Tax (spits), another reason why I think most marshals would rather not be paid.

Breakfast or food vouchers is a good idea buy would fall on the organising clubs to provide and not the circuits.

[single keel]

Originally posted by Chronicle
I haven't been on for a few days, and I wanted to respond to the paid officials thread, but due to a problem poster the thread got locked, so I would like to continue the discussion here:



This is not correct single keel, I have worked as a OH&S Professional and taught OH&S, and the law does not differentiate between paid and volunteer work. If what you are saying is correct how do the thousands of volunteer fire fighters and SES people get on? (and I have been one of these as well)

As I also 'volunteer' at a race circuit, what "mountain of paperwork" are you talking about?

Thanks for the correction as to OHS issues. OHS is not my area of expertise, its a poor excuse but I was going on what I was told...

The "mountain of paperwork" I was referring to was in the payment of officials. Its not just the 100-200 cheques that would need to be produced, but group certificates and the like. Nothing insurmountable, just more work. In anycase, I don't think paperwork is the issue, nor OHS, its the dollars to pay the officials.

[EvilPumpkin]

Well I don't know about anyone else, but if I was getting paid for marshalling, I'd probably have to quit as it could quite seriously affect my income tax.

Also, how is that going to work for marshals travelling from one circuit to another? Do they get paid by the marshals club? Does that mean that non-members don't get paid?

Logistically, it's a bit of a nightmare. More financial support for equipment, travel and subsistence would be greatly appreciated of course.

[Grahame West]

I don't want to be paid for marshaling, mainly 'cause next thing there'll be a load of rules & regs that come with the pay.

More spent on caring for the marshals would be good, better equipment, more huts, more loos near posts, priority marshal parking.

Think the circuits should take more care of us, after all no marshals = no racing.

[JohnMiller]

Originally posted by EvilPumpkin
Well I don't know about anyone else, but if I was getting paid for marshalling, I'd probably have to quit as it could quite seriously affect my income tax.

How would that work then? You would pay a maximum of 40% on what you earned marshalling...

They could have an agreement with the IR to pay marshalls netted (as per building contractors etc.), and/or you could always request a charitable donation in place of remuneration if you preferred - even a Stakeholder pension contribution.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
Breakfast or food vouchers is a good idea buy would fall on the organising clubs to provide and not the circuits.

not necessarily Stephen......

I think, but i stand to be corrected, that most food outlets at circuits are actually franchised/leased out. Therefore the circuits could impose a rule whereby any accredited marshal can obtain food at a greatly reduced rate.

The "Carrot" would be: greater number of diners....
The "Big Stick" would be: do it or we'll hire/lease another caterer!!

I don't need to be paid but would like to pursue my hobby in better/safer surroundings. I just feel that us volunteers should not be ripped-off in the same way as the general public are, regarding food and drink prices.

[Chronicle]

Originally posted by Stephen Green
We have had this conversation/discussion many times before and it always comes back to the same answer, marshals do what they do because it is their hobby and because of their love of motorsport. There are all sorts of arguements about whether equipment or overals could/should be sponsored and as I said above, the subject has been discussed on many occasions before.

Feel free to continue this thread but please take into consideration previous threads...

Thanks for your response and suggestion Stephen, but this was being discussed in the Australian Section and was moved to here (which is OK, because this is where it belongs.) A lot of Aussies don't go to any other forums other than the Australian one, so whilst it may have been done to death here, it hasn't been in the Australian section. Please, no offence meant.

[Don Truman]

AS I said in my paper on marshalling I don't think marshals want paying but I think it would be a good and popular idea if some contribution to their afforts were made.
Food or meals vouchers-subsidised overalls and boots-drinks during or after the event and most importantly "RESPECT" not to be treated like cannon fodder.
If this were done we might hold the ones we have got and might get some young ones.
Don Truman

[Chronicle]

At all the tracks that I have attended (in Australia), lunch (and some breakfasts) have always been supplied (albeit a bit dodgy at times). Some officials (who are a part of team) have protective clothing issued, but this is not the general rule.

I beleive that circuit owners/promoter understand the difficulties faced by volunteers, but because in most cases meetings are run on a shoe-string budget, and not unusual for the meeting to run at a substantial loss. I don't know about overseas, but if a circuit wants a round of the major racing series here (V8 Supercars - both formats), then they have to pay the owners of the series a substatial amount of money to run it, if the numbers don't come through the gates then there is a problem balancing the books. Of course lately Insurance for Circiut Owners/Promoters has been a huge cost because of the nature of motorsport.

It is interseting that Graeme West speaks of loos near posts, this is one issue that I beleive is just about intolerable, I have seen toilets be placed near points for 2 race meetings, both at Bathurst, the 1000 and the 24 hour. This is an issue that must be rectified, yes, it is a cost, but....

[Muppet]

Look at what Castle Combe and Knockhill provide for their marshals and repeat that at EVERY circuit.

Knockhill has a dedicated marshal's building complete with kitchen and endless supply of hot and cold food and drink. It brings all the marshals together at the start, middle and end of the day which generates a strong team spirit.

[JimW]

Originally posted by Wrex
I dont think anyone would disagree that Marshals deserved to be paid, the question is who is going to pay them?

I disagree, very strongly. I don't want to be paid for my hobby. Sure a fiver for a drink is very welcome and I'm most appreciative, but that is not what I mean by being paid.

I want to pursue my hobby without having to think "Can I afford to ditch this crummy series?" I want to be free to regard it as an amusement without pressure on me to add to my working week.

I occasionally do "paid" track days but that is usually because someone has asked me and that is fine. (Helping friends doe not mean I am going to reject money. )

Equally I have no problem with working alongside people who are being paid; good luck to them.

Regards

Jim

[Chronicle]

I understand that at the Bathurst 24 hour all meals are provided for officials who are on duty.

At Winton where I spend most of my time, lunch is provided, regular drink runs are done, particularly on the 30+C days, there is always after meeting "refreshments", and a suasage sizzle on the Sunday night.

I was really surprised where someone said earlier that they have to buy their lunch at a race meeting where they were officiating - that is totally unacceptable.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Wrex
Without doubt it is done for 'the love of it', not cash. However I'm sure there can be substantial 'out of pocket' expenses that go with it. While people keep volunteering, payment will not materialise. It will only be when they run out of top blokes/girls that they look at it seriously.

In my experience.....not all Marshals are involved purely for the love of the sport....some have other agendas and/or huge egos motiovating them. There are some dangerous loose canons out there - watch your backs!!

[Tracey]

Ok How's this for an idea? Most marshals I know don't want paying, but do find our hobby costly. How about the MSA (or other countries governing bodies) sort a scheme to enable travel expenses to be reclaimed (or even a percentage of!) They could issue forms to cover a three month period. You record which circuits/events you went to and mileage for each journey, then return after three months. They run a few autoroutes to check your claim, and cross check signing on forms to ensure you did actually attend the meetings you say you did, and then repay via cheque or direct into your bank a set amount per mile covered. I know an element of trust is required as time would probably not permit all routes and attendances to be checked. We use a simillar system where I work and it works, plus our auditors haven't grumbled about it!

This would make the MSA Marshals Register more functional, plus would avoid the need to complete such lengthy applications for the GP (they know who's done the required number of meetings). Could also save on producing application forms for the event, as a tag on could be added to the claim form for Oct-Dec.

MSA would be able to recoup costs from circuits, clubs, and drivers in regard to entry fees and fines etc.

[Stephen Green]

SRB that is all very nice but who is going to foot the bill? As has been said above, motorsport is suffering with spiralling costs and the 'grass root' clubby drivers are finding it difficult to fund their race programmes. The cost of paying marshals, even a small amount, would have to come from the entrants as the MSA don't have the resource to pay marshals. I happen to agree with JimW.

Chronicle, I assure you no offence was taken

[Chronicle]

CAMS in Australia; (CAMS = Confederation of Motor Sport, the FIA snactioned body for car and truck, not drag or motorcycle racing) isn't that finiacial so I can't see it affording to pay officials, and as some would say "nor would they want to",

In fact because of some poor management decisions things aren't going very well for them at all right now.

CAMS are not only the sanctioning body , but the Assoction (ASN) that tracks HAVE to buy their insurance from or they (the ASN) won't issue a track licence, very interesting isn't it. I am sure it operates quite differently overseas.

[BugEyed]

I'm against the idea of employing Marshals for a number of reasons:

• It'll significantly increase costs - not just the direct cost of what the Marshal receives but also their income tax, NI, the employers NI, admin etc.
• The motivation for Marshalling might change from helping your club or enjoying Marshalling to doing it for the money.

However, things move on over the years. In the distant past the VSCC didn't pay its Marshals but instead used to feed and water them. However, this became increasingly difficult to organise and the VSCC switched from feeding and watering to providing a payment in lieu which the Marshals can use to either cover the cost of bringing refreshments etc with them or use to buy them at the circuit. In addition, through the VSCC Marshals Guild, other help is provided. I believe that many other clubs do the same.

Personally, I find it increasingly difficult to understand the split between club meetings and professional meetings. :confused: At a club meeting I had assumed everybody was helping out a club with which they identified. At a non-club meeting I assumed that everybody, competitors and officials, would be exchanging their input for money. I really haven't understood why Marshals are willing to give their time freely to subsidise the owners of F1 and the owners of circuits such as Silverstone. However, the lines between these two types of event have blurred. Even at club events there are paid officials (eg the doctors and circuit staff) and paid drivers, mechanics etc. Yet the free input of marshals time is still expected. :confused:

Within the Club with which I identify myself, the VSCC, I justify my Race Meeting Marshalling as an unofficial labour exchange for the marshalling that is required to keep down the cost of my chosen competition (rallying) within the club. However I get annoyed with those people who don't reciprocate in the unofficial arrangement. By putting in our effort for free, we are effectively subsidising their fun or profession. Fortunately, within the VSCC the number that only take is small in comparison to the number who contribute. Should the balance shift, as it has done in the last couple of years, then my annoyance might cause me to re-evaluate my position.


Duncan

[Stephen Green]

Very thought provoking Duncan, assuming I read your post correctly. It seems to me that other drivers could take a leaf from your book and offer their services as marshals on those weekends they are not racing.

We (marshals) do get drivers on occasion but normally when they are seeking a signature on their licence (a laudable scheme in my opinion). However, we don't seem to get a regular flow of drivers offering to marshal on their 'weekends off'. I suspect there are numerous reasons why not, time and family matters being close to the top of the list I suspect, but maybe it's an area we as marshals should look to source new members?

On a similar vein it's extremely rare that when a driver, for whatever reason ends his/her racing career, then becomes a marshal. I'm sure there are some good reasons why this doen't happen but I would be interested to hear some!