The Webber illusion

[Yours Trulli]

Hi guys and gurls

Something strickes me as somewhat ironic... This time last year we were being constantly told how wonderful Mark Webber is and that ''if only he was in a good car he would be unstoppable'' etc...
Well in fairness to Mark it would be wrong to suggest that this years Williams is a great package, however, it is surely a car that is capable of some good results from time to time, and quite frankly Webber has - IMO - been the disappointment of the season.
If you remember he slagged off Pizzonia during the winter testing when his team-mate was yet to be announced. Then after only a couple of races this year he was already saying uncomplimentary things about Heidfeld, suggesting that ''Nick just sits there in races''.
Well the thing that I notice is that with only six races remaining of 2005, Heidfeld, the guy who was called in right at the last minute ( when it was only he or Pizzonia available ) is actually beating this 'Aussie Ace' who had been hyped up as the second coming of Christ...
Now I'm not one to remember all the details like whose engine blew here, or who was taken out there, and who had a botched pit-stop at one race etc...but it seems to me that if Webber was anything like the tallent some people were insisting he is then he would certainly not be behind Heidfeld, and would really be comfortably ahead of him in the points standings!!?
To be honest I'm quite relieved. Before the season started I had read and heard so much about ''the wonders of Webber'' that I assumed that I must not have been paying enough attention these last few seasons and had missed some of the 'amazing' performances that this guy had been putting in. But actually I happen to think I was probably right, Webber is no more than a mediocre tallent but with a very successful PR and a clean cut image that goes down well with many insiders.

This is of course just my take on things, I'm sure some others may agree or may view things more sympathetically to Mark...!?

[FPV GTHO]

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72564

Try a search next time.

All this arguing and it hasnt changed the fact that the opinion gap over Webber is still as far apart as his highs and lows of the season so far

[Yours Trulli]

Well I'm a newbie so I guess I should be forgiven!

Anyway I can't see how anyone could argue that Webber has actaually done good this season!!!!? I can see that some people would blame a bad car for his poor results, but being beaten by Heidfeld, thats unforgivable.

[Raglanparade]

Oh no, not another Webber bashing thread.

When will it stop !!

[FPV GTHO]

Analyse each of his performances and you'll find where hes done brilliantly and where hes given up.

[Yours Trulli]

Originally Posted by jasonhill9884

Oh no, not another Webber bashing thread.

When will it stop !!

You call this a 'bashing thread' ?? Seems more like the obvious to me...

[Yours Trulli]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Analyse each of his performances and you'll find where hes done brilliantly and where hes given up.

In 2005, I don't think at any race he has driven 'brilliantly'. He did well in Monaco and was okay in Australia. Apart from that I think he's been clumsy and slow.

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by Yours Trulli

In 2005, I don't think at any race he has driven 'brilliantly'. He did well in Monaco and was okay in Australia. Apart from that I think he's been clumsy and slow.

Well looks like you've been doing your homework.

Malaysia, Canada, Hungary.

He has fought hard all year made a few errors, been a bit tricky with faster cars (Bahrain) but he drives his guts out. And Nick to that matter has also done a comendable job and the duo have performed well this season. To say that they have underperformed or worse, been the worst on the grid. In my eyes, isn't an accurate judgement.

Hype is hype, make what you want out of it. In the end of the day it isn't the media who determine the order its the drivers.

And call it Australian bias, well it isn't really. I follow Mark because he's Aussie, but he isn't my fav driver my a long shot.

[BootsOntheSide]

Mods, is this really going anywhere? There are plenty of other threads discussing Webber already.

[Yours Trulli]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

Well looks like you've been doing your homework.

Malaysia, Canada, Hungary.

Malaysia - didn't Nick out qualify him? I might be wrong about that. Anyway in the race he had a silly collision with Fisichella. It was obvious that Fisi wasn't going to be able to defend his position for very long so why the clumsy rushed move by Webber?? Very silly indeed...

Canada - Wsn't Nick ahead of him before his engine went? Again, apologies if I'm miatsken here. But I was at that race and I don't remember thinking 'wow - Webber's doing awesome!'

Hungary - yet again he made contact with other cars at the start. Made up some places but mainly due to others dropping out. Still finished quite a way behind Nick. I'm not saying it was a poor performance, but it certainly wasn't anything to write home about...

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by Yours Trulli

Malaysia - didn't Nick out qualify him? I might be wrong about that. Anyway in the race he had a silly collision with Fisichella. It was obvious that Fisi wasn't going to be able to defend his position for very long so why the clumsy rushed move by Webber?? Very silly indeed...

Canada - Wsn't Nick ahead of him before his engine went? Again, apologies if I'm miatsken here. But I was at that race and I don't remember thinking 'wow - Webber's doing awesome!'

Hungary - yet again he made contact with other cars at the start. Made up some places but mainly due to others dropping out. Still finished quite a way behind Nick. I'm not saying it was a poor performance, but it certainly wasn't anything to write home about...

Umm Malaysia, Nick qual 10, Mark qual 4. Perhaps a quick check would have helped.

Canada: Nick was all of 2.8 seconds in front of Webber when he went out, and he also could not pass Massa.

Hungary: He did finish 24 seconds behind Nick. But his actual race pace with what he had was actually pretty darn close to Nick. And plus Mark had to go out 2nd in qual and with a strategy, which Williams claimed was the wrong one, he did a decent effort and came away with points.

[Yours Trulli]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

Umm Malaysia, Nick qual 10, Mark qual 4. Perhaps a quick check would have helped.

Canada: Nick was all of 2.8 seconds in front of Webber when he went out, and he also could not pass Massa.

Hungary: He did finish 24 seconds behind Nick. But his actual race pace with what he had was actually pretty darn close to Nick. And plus Mark had to go out 2nd in qual and with a strategy, which Williams claimed was the wrong one, he did a decent effort and came away with points.

Alright so I said I might have been mistaken about the qualifying in Malaysia...no need to wet yourself about it.

Canada - so I was right! Nick was ahead of Webber, same in Hungary...you say he was ''close to Nick'' !!! But surely Webber is the ''next big thing'' so shouldn't he be miles up the road from Nick? I'm not sayiong Heidfeld is bad, not at all, but I think few would argue that he's Champion material...yet he's regularly beating Webber!

[pole2pole]

I think the problem is that Mark is driving for the right team but at the wrong time. Those qualifying laps in the jag with light fuel loads didn't do his career any harm what so ever. Webber is a diver that just doesn't stand out for me. What I mean is when you look at Micheal,Kimi or Montoya these guys would drive over the top of you if they new they would get extra grip and they seem to pull lap times out of the car that are just WOW. I don't get that with Webber or maybe he is just in the wrong car

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by Yours Trulli

Alright so I said I might have been mistaken about the qualifying in Malaysia...no need to wet yourself about it.

Canada - so I was right! Nick was ahead of Webber, same in Hungary...you say he was ''close to Nick'' !!! But surely Webber is the ''next big thing'' so shouldn't he be miles up the road from Nick? I'm not sayiong Heidfeld is bad, not at all, but I think few would argue that he's Champion material...yet he's regularly beating Webber!

Regularly beating Webber? No i dont believe so, and i dont believe Mark is regluarly beating Nick. The two are closer matched than most may think.

What makes you think Webber is the next big thing, papers you read in 2003, or 2004? Wasn't Fisi the 2nd best driver in 2002? (or 3rd if your Eddie Irvine).

Personally papers can write what they want, they are in the end just another opinion, which gets exposed and re-read over and over again, somehow making it gospel. Yes Mark drove quite well in his years at Jaguar but until they set foot in a competative car that can win races you dont really know whether they can win WC, as its a totally different environment, driving with no pressure, and driving with pressure, bigger resources, bigger demands on the driver etc.

You said "but I think few would argue that he's Champion material...yet he's regularly beating Webber! " surely thats a type somewhere, or you have just confused yourself in your own statement??

Anyways if Williams wants Webber, if Flavio likes Webber i cant see whats wrong with their judgement. IT must mean something thats for sure, and these are peoples judgements who have worked with him day in and day out.

Id much rather put my trust in those two rather than some papers flamboyont opinion, whcih mind you is there to sell its papers.

[Yours Trulli]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

You said "but I think few would argue that he's Champion material...yet he's regularly beating Webber! " surely thats a type somewhere, or you have just confused yourself in your own statement??

huh? I meant not many people would say that Heidfeld is good enough to win a Championship... I guess you could read that sentance in two ways, it was fairly obvious what I meant though, surely?

[Oaksnaf]

Originally Posted by Yours Trulli

huh? I meant not many people would say that Heidfeld is good enough to win a Championship... I guess you could read that sentance in two ways, it was fairly obvious what I meant though, surely?

Yeh it was, but i can still make sure right?

Plus i dont think many can really proove Webber is a 'bad' driver, as for that matter we could with Alex Yoong, who apparently is setting good times in A1GP, but thats a whole different matter.

One day you'll see Webber back on that podium. And maybe when Williams (or when he switches to Renault) you'll see his face on the podium more often than not. He will not give up, he is a gutsy, determined driver and it is only going to help. Afterall he is still learning.

[Yours Trulli]

Originally Posted by Oaksnaf

Plus i dont think many can really proove Webber is a 'bad' driver.

Of course he isn't! Did anyone ever suggest that? I regard him as about 12th-14th best of the current drivers. There are lots who are better ( in my opinion ) and some who are clearly not as tallented.

I believe he has a part to play in F1, just not in a top team.

[lookleft]

Mods? Shut this rubbish down - new isn't an excuse for baiting.

[Yours Trulli]

Originally Posted by lookleft

Mods? Shut this rubbish down - new isn't an excuse for baiting.

what the hell are you talking about?

[lookleft]

I have no intention of engaging any further in this inane thread.

BTW - suggest you re-read the forum rules.

[Yours Trulli]

Originally Posted by lookleft

I have no intention of engaging any further in this inane thread.

BTW - suggest you re-read the forum rules.

What rule do you think I am ignoring? Everything I wrote was written tactfully and it was clearly stated as merely MY OPINION.

[Knowlesy]

Webber again.....yawn.....

[Marbot]

Can't we just put an end to driver threads! For the most part they are just passengers in their chosen steeds and quite often are victims of circumstance.Why can't we just leave them alone.Why can't we all just get along!

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Can't we just put an end to driver threads! For the most part they are just passengers in their chosen steeds and quite often are victims of circumstance.Why can't we just leave them alone.Why can't we all just get along!

Well said martyn.

[Yours Trulli]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

Can't we just put an end to driver threads! For the most part they are just passengers in their chosen steeds and quite often are victims of circumstance.Why can't we just leave them alone.Why can't we all just get along!

This is crazy! Isn't this an F1 forum for discussion about all areas of F1?? Why on earth would a thread about a driver cause some people to act so utterly childishly!!?! It was written sensibly and so far nobody has had a single mature thing to say about it.