Phoenix Off

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by indycool

I agree, D.R.T. Johnson is just CC's "fall guy" for its problems. I don't think he has any decision-making whatsoever about these events.

In this case, its a Dale Jensen decision, not a CC. It is very unfortunate that this happened but I dont think anyone is making Johnson the fall guy.

[Muzza]

It was clear from the get-go that the Phoenix race was on shaky grounds (once again, hate to say I told you so...). Besides everything that was said above by other posters, the organizers of the stillborn Champ Car event faced a lot - and I do mean a lot - of opposition by the PIR owners. PIR badmouthed the CC race was much as it could - a friend of mine (gotta love these vintage racers) revealed me that the PIR manager got to the point of telling the Phoenix Fire Department that a Champ Car would be "hazardous", lining up a series of bogus arguments. Also, and contrary to what was published on the Champ Car website and by a few other crony websites, there was not warmly received by Phoenix officials/politicians (this was already brewing in May).

Originally Posted by indycool

I agree, D.R.T. Johnson is just CC's "fall guy" for its problems. I don't think he has any decision-making whatsoever about these events.

The cancellation at Phoenix was predicted long ago, so this shouldn't come as a surprise. DDB Ventures, supposedly the promoters (Dale Jensen and Brad Yonover and maybe a deal with someone else...KK?) signed up for Vegas and Phoenix. They lost their cabooses on Vegas....I've heard unconfirmed numbers from reasonably good sources anywhere from $9-19 million. This caused them to take a long look at Phoenix. And the "recall" of tickets with a reissue date of November should've told everybody something was going on.

Both Jensen and Johnson have said it doesn't affect Vegas for '08 but Vegas is already affected for '08 and few seem to realize it. There's gonna be a whole lotta shakin' goin' on before we see Vegas again, either.

http://www.lvrj.com/sports/9441161.html

The Thomas and Mack Center is off Strip and Tropicana and Swenson are two major arteries in town, both of which are critical to getting to the airport. It is also on the UNLV campus and under the control of the state's university system in addition to Clark County. There are dormitories and residences all around there. It's definitely not the place for a street course.

As for this year's course, the scenario has already changed. An Alzheimer's research hospital is going up near the World Market Center where a set of bleachers were for this year's race. Other construction is also going on.

And the loss, whether at the low end of the speculation or the high end, is staggering.

As usual, Indycool is very well informed. I heard smaller numbers on the Vegas race loss - USD 4 million - but that does not discredit Indycool's words above. As of today, my prediction that we will see a Champ Car race in Vegas in 2008 (let alone 2009) is of 25%.


Muzza

[2112]

Originally Posted by Muzza

As usual, Indycool is very well informed. I heard smaller numbers on the Vegas race loss - USD 4 million - but that does not discredit Indycool's words above. As of today, my prediction that we will see a Champ Car race in Vegas in 2008 (let alone 2009) is of 25%.


Muzza

I agree, it`s cool to have a Champ Car fan on the inside.

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by Muzza

It was clear from the get-go that the Phoenix race was on shaky grounds (once again, hate to say I told you so...). Besides everything that was said above by other posters, the organizers of the stillborn Champ Car event faced a lot - and I do mean a lot - of opposition by the PIR owners. PIR badmouthed the CC race was much as it could - a friend of mine (gotta love these vintage racers) revealed me that the PIR manager got to the point of telling the Phoenix Fire Department that a Champ Car would be "hazardous", lining up a series of bogus arguments. Also, and contrary to what was published on the Champ Car website and by a few other crony websites, there was not warmly received by Phoenix officials/politicians (this was already brewing in May).





As usual, Indycool is very well informed. I heard smaller numbers on the Vegas race loss - USD 4 million - but that does not discredit Indycool's words above. As of today, my prediction that we will see a Champ Car race in Vegas in 2008 (let alone 2009) is of 25%.


Muzza

Yes the CCWS race faced a lot of opposition especially from Sheriff Arpaio. All the political and sheriff problems were solved.
The biggest problem came about, in my opinion from the financial loss DMB faced from the Vegas race WHEN YOU ADD IN the loss of a title sponsor for the Phoenix race. If the vegas race broke even or made money IN MY OPINION DMB probably would have kept the Phoenix race going.
DMB when faced with losses in Vegas and Phoenix, pulled the plug.

As for Vegas construction I was up there last weekend. There was no construction near the world market where the CCWS bleachers sat.
Now in Vegas construction can go very quick.

I just hope CCWS can keep the Vegas going, it was a really great event.

Well it looks like my plans for going to Surfers and the Phoenix race have been changed to just going to the Surfers.

I will contact the safety team member I know and see if he as any info as to what is going on.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by Tony Clifton

I just hope CCWS can keep the Vegas going, it was a really great event.

Very much agree. There is a lot of potential in that event for CC and the event organisers.

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Oh, by the way, Cotman is not "the man" in charge of marketing - Johnson is. Cotman is in charge of race operations. Cotman would have nothing to do with the marketing (or failure to market) the Phoenix race.

As IC pointed out SJ is jut the fall guy and just say public spin. CC needs someone to get their ass in gear ad not say everything is going to be ok. And btw TC is the one who's planning the next schedule. I'm not saying he has anything to do with the phoenix race..

[indycool]

With the complicated financial deals that seem to get CC races to the altar (or not), it isn't Cotman or Johnson who's going to be putting these things together. The strings will be pulled well above them.

[Mystery]

Yes I would imagine that's right. That there perhaps might be something wrong with the model the amigos were using to build the series and it's unravelling in front of them. Give them their due though they did fund the series for so long and deserve respect for that at least, but it needs/needed to stand on its own and isn't surviving very well as a result.


Can I just add here that I am going to continue to comment on CCWS even though I may not be wholly positive. I'm not just going to shake my head and walk away in silence because if every slightly disillusioned Champ Car fan did that then that would be the fastest way to kill the series stone dead. I care about it so I'm prepared to give a view.

[Tony Clifton]

Heck I am not walking away from this series. Not by a long shot. But to give some indication of how bad open wheel racing has been hurt by the split, take a look at the IRL.
Lots of teams coming and going, Tony George is handing out subsidy. He runs at least what 2 cars.
The same teams that dominated in CART dominate in IRL.
The same "complaints and problems" Tony George brought up back in 1992 currently EXIST in the IRL.
The only thing that has changed is who owns the racing series!

NASCAR has it's own set of problems, but at least the france family sees the big picture and the cheeks are still in the seats and although there are arguments about TV ratings, NASCAR is covered as a major sport by FOX and Speedchannel and every major metropolitan newspaper.
Heck even Jacque Villeneuve is racing NASCAR.
Why?

T H E M O N E Y I S T H E R E from sponsors to ticket sales to TV revenue. Jacque can drive for the next 10 years if he is good with sponsors and get some half way decent results.

[luke]

Couldn't agree more Tony. "All the haha CC is dying, i'm loving it, IRL is better" posts are flawed as the IRL has its own sets of problems and is no way without life support albeit it will have Indy which will always be there.

Back to CC, we all see the problems and potential that could arrive. There is absolutely no point restarting the series as everything is lost, then there is nothing. Try bringing it back on nothing, just a waste of more money and climbing up a mountain when paralyzed. At least when the series is still in working arms there is one leg.

I expect the great Dutch fans will enjoy CC this week and turn out in what I hope is a good event. I guess if CC is to survive, it should have half the races in the Europe as I read in an article and does make some sense at least. But OWRS is the ones that need to start making these decisions and not post spin that everything is fine to the public, start doing something before things get worse! Perhaps I am too concerned, just I can see the winter of 2003/2004 all over again.

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by luke

Couldn't agree more Tony. "All the haha CC is dying, i'm loving it, IRL is better" posts are flawed as the IRL has its own sets of problems and is no way without life support albeit it will have Indy which will always be there.

Back to CC, we all see the problems and potential that could arrive. There is absolutely no point restarting the series as everything is lost, then there is nothing. Try bringing it back on nothing, just a waste of more money and climbing up a mountain when paralyzed. At least when the series is still in working arms there is one leg.

I expect the great Dutch fans will enjoy CC this week and turn out in what I hope is a good event. I guess if CC is to survive, it should have half the races in the Europe as I read in an article and does make some sense at least. But OWRS is the ones that need to start making these decisions and not post spin that everything is fine to the public, start doing something before things get worse! Perhaps I am too concerned, just I can see the winter of 2003/2004 all over again.

That is probably where the series is going to have to end up. Half international dates and half US based road and street races.

Drivers, sponsors and TV need to be stabilized, all of which are tall orders.

At least I get to go back to the Surfers race, a race that is really the ULTIMATE CCWS event. I have been to many races in my life, the Surfers race was the biggest party/race I have ever been to.

Now if we could just bring that spirit to the rest of the races in the series.

[Knowlesy]

Champcar has to be a success before it crosses the pond for me. It has to establish fixed venues in the US year on year and build from there.

Can't build an empire with no foundations.

[Dutton]

I think CC needs to focus wherever it can get the best attendances, and various other financial considerations. It may prove that Europe can provide some stronger bases than in North America. To assume the best strategy for its long-term survival, if such a thing is possible, is to focus on North America may well prove fallacious. I don't have the numbers, but I wouldn't think the situation can be much worse in Europe than over here.

If setting up the solid base in North America is the best way to go, then do that. If using Europe is, then do that. The problem with over here is that if a series is not NASCAR, then it faces a very difficult challenge to be noticed. This is something that is hard to properly grasp unless you live here.

NASCAR is quite suffocatingly hegemonic, by all accounts.

[Tony Clifton]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Champcar has to be a success before it crosses the pond for me. It has to establish fixed venues in the US year on year and build from there.

Can't build an empire with no foundations.

CCWS needs solid financial base where it can get it, just as Dutton as described.
CCWS DOES need to keep, IMO a majority of US based races to keep the fan base interested.
NASCAR is the 800 pound gorilla. Here in the states NASCAR HOGS all the media exposure, that squeezes out other races series for TV exposure, which then limits sponsorship. This has only been worse by the split in US open wheel racing.

The split only halved the fan base of what was left after the "casual" fans departed.

[Dutton]

As I have said in other threads, I think CC and IRL should make a big marketing push at NASCAR events. Just have a noticeable presence pushing the series at the places where NASCAR events are being held when they are being held there.

There will be a fair number of people attending those races who could have an interest (either genuinely like motorsport as a whole, or were previously into OW). You may even manage to turn a few new heads.

Something needs to be done...perhaps they need to even consider something as icky as a prelude sprint race with reversed grids (allows for nice clips/highlights, and other propaganda mechanisms). I don't like this kind of thing at the best of times, but we are not dealing with the best of times.

Something different needs to be done to what is currently being done.

[Tony Clifton]

Just got an e mail from one of my friends who works with CCWS.

To paraphrase:
"THEY (take that to mean who you want), said the promoter took a big loss on the vegas race. With the title PROBABLY being settled prior to Phoenix, which would kill attendance and the loss of the title sponsor, the promoter was not will to take the chance on another financial loss, so they bailed.
Not good for the series."


So aggreviating that vegas did not do better, that race and venue were good.

[JohnSSC]

So somehow the loss of Phoenix has turned into yet another TG/IRL bash.

Can we just stick to our knitting here and discuss the ramifications of the cancellation of Phoenix? I mean really, no offense, but flinging poo on the walls to see what sticks is getting tiresome. Does TG own Vision Racing? Yes. Do KK, TG, etc own their own teams? Yes. Do they support other teams? At least indirectly, yes. Great. Each series has an owner/owners involved in racing operations. We could go on for weeks debating this and other points until we turn purple. But that is for other threads. As for NASCAR, absolutely we should blame them for having the brains to take advantage of the opportunities handed to them on a silver platter by both sides in the long-lamented Split. They are the only ones with a business plan that has worked for the most part thus far.

To some, the cancellation of this race is a "blip" in the radar. To some, the cancellation of this race is a sign of serious issues confronting CC. To others, the cancellation of this race is a sign that The End Is Near. In my opinion, there is plenty to discuss with the new developments and their impact on CC without replaying every slight, real or imagined, since the Split.

Lets not turn this into a "CW Lite" sort of forum, shall we? I for one am aggreviated enough...

[indycool]

Mark C. posted that the CC community over in Europe was surprised about the Phoenix cancellation and the reasons Jensen gave for doing it. A poster at another forum says that Freudenberg told the Vegas City Council they were waiting for money from CC before they could pay the city's bill there at about the same time the plug got pulled on Phoenix....an indication that there was some kind of co-promote on the financial catastrophe in Vegas. Guess Jensen wanted to get Vegas settled before he stuck his neck out for another financial guillotine.

[Dutton]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

So somehow the loss of Phoenix has turned into yet another TG/IRL bash.

Where do you get that from?

[mountainstar]

To be fair, the original sponsor was bought out and the contract pulled by the new owners of said sponsor. That obviously caused problems along with nascar running interference over the phoenix date.

On champcars part they are trying to reestablish a series ripped apart several years ago. I can understand some failures. I think in the future champcar needs to develop stronger relationships with promoters and track owners. I don't see that happening to the level I think it needs to be at. Champcar is basically functioning as "this is our sanctioning fee, pay it and we'll turn up and hopefully you will too".

Fundamentally I don't see a problem with the idea of champcar(open wheel road racing), the cars, the variety of circuits, etc. What I do see is organizational chaos. Which is why Cotman is now running the show for the most part. If I was champcar I would really focus on getting organized for 2008. We have a racy car, some good tracks and good drivers. Let's pull it all together.

[Dutton]

I don't think you can reasonably blame CC directly for this failure, but you could argue an indirect effect (if the overall package was appealing enough, then it would not have been dumped).

There has been some pretty funny management with CC at times, but, equally, they have not got an easy lot (IRL faces the same problems, although they have it a bit easier insofar as IRL has more popularity).

[JohnSSC]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Where do you get that from?

Oh, starting around post #59...

...and yes, I do believe there is culpability on CC's part here. There has to be some control/oversight of the folks you partner with. There should have been more in the way of due diligence done in the first place on this race (and Vegas, apparently). Certainly once the promised major sponsor never materialized then action should have been taken.

Or perhaps action was taken as choosing not to do something is an option just the same as throwing additional resources at the problem.

I would find it rather astonishing if, given the current environment for CC, that CC management was doing anything less than micro-managing their relationships with promoters and such. The success of each venue is critical to the overall recovery. It begs disbelief to think that CC contracted with a promoter, put the race on the schedule and had no further contact/interaction.

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

So somehow the loss of Phoenix has turned into yet another TG/IRL bash.

people have been saying 'I can't wait to see CC die, I'm loving it' yet that isn't bashing CC? Then because someone mentioned in the state of AOWR the IRL in comparison that is bashing TG/IRL?

John you are the one that makes out its blaspheming to mention that 2 letter and 3 letter word.

[JohnSSC]

Really? Am I? feel free to point out a quote where I say that.

Overlooked in what I posted, apparently, was the comment that we stick to the discussion of the cancellation. Since this is a CC thread, I reckon that some folks are going to have positive as well as negative comments regarding CC. Some of those comments will be OTT, but fair enough.

What I was objecting to was the listing of the perceived sins of the IRL/TG/NASCAR (did I miss anyone?) in this mess. Sometimes the blame for something can be affixed squarely on CC's shoulders without making CC out to be some sort of helpless victim. One minute these guys are the greatest businessmen since Ken Lay, Dennis kozlowski and Bernard Ebbers, the next they are hapless victims of the evil machinations of others.

This is a Series in really deep stuff. Much of it as the result of it's on actions.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Overlooked in what I posted, apparently, was the comment that we stick to the discussion of the cancellation.

Absolutely, John I think everyone agrees topic focus is priority. I did find it strange how quick you were to use supposedly "TG bashing" as an example as off topic while seemingly ignoring other equally flaming comments.

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

What I was objecting to was the listing of the perceived sins of the IRL/TG/NASCAR (did I miss anyone?) in this mess. Sometimes the blame for something can be affixed squarely on CC's shoulders without making CC out to be some sort of helpless victim.

Who is blaming the current situation on those you listed? I noticed a couple of posters using IRL and Nascar examples to describe and compare problems in American motorsport but at no point was it bashing.

Secondly, I think everyone in this thread, from either a ChampCar or IRL background realises that this is a serious issue (scheduling) that ChampCar needs to work on ASAP.