Report card for Williams

[Mark Webber]

With BMW think for its option's what would you give Williams on a report card over the last 2 years I don't want this to turn into a driver debate !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

on the table in the best driver pairing in current F1 Ralf & jpm the most powerful engine in F1 and Williams and team with a strong HISTORY but how have they performed in the last 2 years

For me if I was in the position to decide Williams would no longer represent BMW IMO Williams have had the tools to do the job and have not produced I'd give them a C- at best

this is my opinon

[Mark Webber]

Sorry about the spelling on the title & post

[Armco Bender]

Could try harder,but always getting beaten up by the school bully in the red Ferrari.

[Wrex]

What spelling mistakes MW?

I'm not sure i'd be that hard on them.

They did very well in 2001 with 4 wins and had the BMW been reliable, would have come 2nd in the championship.

Although 2002 looks bad, the reality is they put McLaren back another spot (not an easy thing to do) and were easily best of the rest behind possible the greatest car ever built.

Ferrari made everyone look bad last year. Even if the BMW engine was as good as the Ferrari (which I don;t think it was), Michael finished on the podiam in every single race. Was the BMW that reliable?

Even if the Williams was every bit as good as the Ferrari, and the BMW engine as strong, reliablity would have put them second anyway.

So to lay the blame entirely on Williams is wrong. The Williams design team, management, the drivers and BMW all share some of the short comings in 2002.

Now if BMW think they can do better on their own, go ahead. Be smart guys, stick with a proven winner.

By the way, there is an article about this here at grandprix.com

[neilap]

Wrex, I could not have said it better myself. Also, Williams said 2nd was their objective. It was attained. I believe BMW is scared they may never build a motor as reliable as Ferrari. So they are playing the blame game.

A bad chassis cant place 2nd in the championship, no matter how powerful the BMW unit is.

[Mark Webber]

I belive Williams can design/bulid a winning car the main critisim i have is Williams mismanagement of their two highly rated driver's it is of my opinion that even if they build a much better car than Ferrari WDC will still be hard to come by due to the made up war between its drivers which Williams is so keen to continue via silly press release and stabbing BOTH drivers in public
No good how the car is drivers fearing/fighting each other on or off the track is not how to win WDC let alonely promote team work . Look down pitlane you don't see many team air is't laundry in public like Williams.

Ps title Willaims DOH!

[BootsOntheSide]

They certainly haven't done as well as McLaren, but I'm not sure why people are suprised at this- Adrian Newey is the key to the McLaren operation, and over the years Williams have often lacked organisation at crucial moments, and seem less structured and prepared than McLaren.

The 2002 car seems to have one main weakness- the usage of the Michelin tyres. Consdiering that they had a year's experience on them, that is inexcusable considering how light the McLaren is on them. If they can correct that for 2003, they'll be fine, the driving talent is there, and so is the engine power.

As for them not representing BMW well, I don't really agree. The Jaguar team certainly doesn't represent Ford well. Although so far BMW have produced a better engine than Williams have with the chassis, that doesn't mean that BMW could produce a winning chassis within their first few attempts. The engine would be putting the cars into false positions.

In my mind, the reason why constructors running full teams is not to do with increased performance (we've seen no evidence of this yet), but that the public see 'McLaren-Mercedes' and think "well done by the McLaren team, nice assistance from Mercedes", only really noticing the engine when it breaks down.

The advertising petential is maximised when you do what Renault have done- take over a team you've worked with for many years, keep most of the same personnel, and wait for the success to roll in.

[Peter Mallett]

I like to think back to 1854 when Rosberg and Mansell first got hold of the Honda Turbo cars.

They handled like dogs and the engine power came in like a steam hammer. That surely was a case of the best driver pairing in the worst handling cars. Yet they took the fight to Macaroon and Lotus. The following year with an equally determined partnership they almost got the championship.

By '87 after three excellent seasons they got it with Piquet but it could have been either driver.

I'm not sure exactly what it is about the BMW partnership but it certainly doesn't seem to be "happening". And yes there are two strong drivers and what is comparitively a reliable engine.

[Peter Mallett]

Er I think I meant 1985!

[BootsOntheSide]

You've got elements of 1984 and 1985 in there Peter. The 1984 Williams-Honda lineup was Rosberg and Laffite, neither of whom could do much with the car. Yet by late 1985, it was the class of the field, with Rosberg and Mansell supreme. Ferrari, not Lotus or Williams, were McLaren's main rivals for most of that season.

[Peter Mallett]

Did they have the Honda in '84? I stand corrected. I thought the first outing for the Honda engine was Kyalami and Rosberg(?) won?

Actually it was Ferrari and not Lotus although Lotus was a force at the time.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Wrex


Now if BMW think they can do better on their own, go ahead. Be smart guys, stick with a proven winner.

My thoughts exactly, as Neilap pointed out, the objective was to come second in the WCC, they obtained that, they are making progress up the table.

Williams/BMW did suffer from quite abit of un-reliability from both sides, however, this un-reliability was made to look even worse by how amazing Ferrari's reliability was, especially on Michaels car.

BMW obviously want to succeed, all teams do, thats why they spend millions of pounds each year, but, if they really want to succeed, then they, as Wrex pointed out should stick with Williams. If BMW were to go on their own, they may still have the most powerful engine, although maybe not the most "driveable" engine, but i honestly don't see their chassis being any better, if indeed as good as the Williams chassis is at the moment.

My report card would be.........

Qualifying A- (Ferrari A+ as the took all the other poles)
Race B (Ferrari A+ for obvious reasons)

[Damon]

I'll let you guys in on a little secret. I have it on excellent authority that Williams are already in preliminary talks with Audi, with regard an engine deal when BMW set up on their own in 2004. This fits in very well with Audi taking a brake from le mans next year and BMW being very hush hush about their own future.

[Peter Mallett]

So another three years of unreliability and (relative) failure then.

[Wrex]

Originally posted by Mark Webber
Ps title Willaims DOH!

huh?

Thanks Damon, I was going to mention that in my previous post.

Audi could walk in and get an engine together long before BMW could get the whole package right.

Imagine going it alone and watching your competitor in their 1st year ahead of you (and paying 5 times as much for the privilage).

[Damon]

Absolutly Wrex. I think BMW have shot themselves in the foot with their insistance that Williams need them more than they need Williams. Toyota and Jaguar have proved that all the money in the world can not buy you success and an admittedly extremely fast but unreliable engine simply won't be enough to get them to the top on their own.

[Red]

Give Toyota the benefit of doubt. It's their first year, as opposed to Jaguar. And Jaguar have proved (just like BAR before them altough not with the same stunning 'arguments') that a lousy and incosistent management cannot do business, regardless of the budget.

[z2252314]

If BMW come out with the best engine again in 2003 and Mercedez get more wins, then Frank can forget about an extended BM deal. BMW can tolerate losing to Ferrari, but they compete fiercley with Merc, and if they dont come out on top they will go full works or leave F1.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by z2252314
BMW can tolerate losing to Ferrari, but they compete fiercley with Merc, and if they dont come out on top they will go full works or leave F1.

Agreed with this, however, will "going it alone" improve or decrease there chances of victory? I like BMW, and i'd like to see them and Williams to win together, however, Audi.Williams seems an exciting concept.

[Red]

That's a mind-game between Williams and BMW and I'm not so sure who threw the first punch. The general perception is that Williams (or Schumacher jr. or Montoya) 'win' races, but it's the BMW reliability that loses them. That's highly innacurate and definitelly not fair. So even though they'd lose, they'd rather prefer to lose under their own name than being blamed by others.

[Yoong Montoya]

I think BMW would just end up humiliating themselves if they started their own team. Do they really want to see Williams win races with Audi or Honda while BMW are stuck in midfield?

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Red

The general perception is that Williams (or Schumacher jr. or Montoya) 'win' races, but it's the BMW reliability that loses them. That's highly innacurate and definitelly not fair.

The Williams team didn't build a car that could win, no, (except a lucky win for Rafe at Maylasia), however, of the drivers unreliability non-finishes, with the exception of Monza, where JPM is thought to have hit the kerbing too hard, all the failures lay at BMW's feet, had it not been for that, the Williams, although not good enough to win (although not possibly the case in Canada) was good enough to finish the races.

JPM.... Monaco - broken engine Canada - broken engine
Rafe... Spain - broken engine Canada - broken engine (although it expired as he crossed the line)

[ASCII Man]

What about Ralfy's blow up at Monza where the BMW engine lasted for about 5 laps or so?

[Mr V]

Originally posted by ®îjñtjûh
What about Ralfy's blow up at Monza where the BMW engine lasted for about 5 laps or so?

Oh forgot about that one, another one to back up my point.

[Damon]

I'd really like to see Audi engines in the Williams. Their recent le mans experiance and huge success shows that they know how to build an engine and a reliable one at that!