[BTCC] BTCC 2021

[S griffin]

So far we’ve got TPC/Excelr8 tie up. Who else? I am sure WSR and Dynamics will back, as should PMR, with factory backing again. MB will be back with Hill. If they stay with Honda, it will be the FK8. That would make sense. BTC, would be a surprise not to see them back. What car with Cicely switch to? Ford perhaps? HARD, will they run anything alongside the Cupras? Should see Parker and Motorbase back, but still a lot of unanswered questions when it comes to who will run what and who will drive for who

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

So far we’ve got TPC/Excelr8 tie up. Who else? I am sure WSR and Dynamics will back, as should PMR, with factory backing again. MB will be back with Hill. If they stay with Honda, it will be the FK8. That would make sense. BTC, would be a surprise not to see them back. What car with Cicely switch to? Ford perhaps? HARD, will they run anything alongside the Cupras? Should see Parker and Motorbase back, but still a lot of unanswered questions when it comes to who will run what and who will drive for who

To have factory backing again, surely you should have had it before LOL??

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Pick any manufacturer on the grid today, and look at the range of models they are committed to beyond 2025. I'd be surprised if you can name a single one who doesn't have a car that isn't eligible for the BTCC going forward.

Originally Posted by auroan

Two straight away.. MG and Subaru

A) MG and Subaru were not on the grid this season
B) MG5 and Subaru Impreza would both be eligible.

Originally Posted by psq43

What's Nissan selling that isn't a Micra?

Not on the grid this season, but the Ariya would be eligible.

Originally Posted by peebee2

Infiniti.

Honda, other than electric?

Toyota (ICE)?

Infiniti - true. The current Q50 would be eligible beyond 2025, but they have withdrawn from Western Europe. I guess you could look at Nissan?

Honda - 2022 Civic is being revealed today.
Toyota - Camry refresh due in 2021, with a new model in 2024.

The lack of ICE models will become irrelevant soon, when the UK prohibits the sale of ICE models from 2030.
I agree entirely that there seems to be a prevalence of small SUVs in most brands' range - but I disagree with the view that there are going to be no NGTC compatible base cars available.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by Pringles

Yet another stupid looking compact SUV type car IMO.

I wonder what will happen in the long term for the BTCC car options, given car makers are dropping suitable cars for BTCC in favour of everything being a bloody SUV on stilts, not to mention the amount of idiots buying them in droves and droves.

I had thought by now that the EU might have moved to legislate against OR at the very least hike taxes on SUVs to try and diminish the effect of climate change by private mobility. However, who runs the EU? Germany. The lobbyists for the Kraut giants alone will no doubt be behind this not happening.

Why do people buy them? Herd instinct and copy catting. The size of the SUV is seen as prestige - my willy is bigger than yours nonsense. They are all hopeless at handling, but at town speeds ferrying unfit overweight future problems for the NHS (or children as they are otherwise known) to school and back it makes no odds.

It's only when you see the tanks on the other side of the pond that you realise how $%&#£@ up we are as a society. You don't need a box bigger than a Vietnamese families home to take your kids to school. Or rather, you do: it's called the school bus.

<disengage rant mode>

Ford in the US is out of the car market (other than the Mustang). Yanks only buy SUV tanks and enormous puck ups. I predict other car brands ceasing to build what we identify as "cars" before mid point this decade.

[Tja]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A) MG and Subaru were not on the grid this season
B) MG5 and Subaru Impreza would both be eligible.


Not on the grid this season, but the Ariya would be eligible.


Infiniti - true. The current Q50 would be eligible beyond 2025, but they have withdrawn from Western Europe. I guess you could look at Nissan?

Honda - 2022 Civic is being revealed today.
Toyota - Camry refresh due in 2021, with a new model in 2024.

The lack of ICE models will become irrelevant soon, when the UK prohibits the sale of ICE models from 2030.
I agree entirely that there seems to be a prevalence of small SUVs in most brands' range - but I disagree with the view that there are going to be no NGTC compatible base cars available.

As you've said, there's still plenty of models around that are suited to NGTC and in particular the Golf/Focus-sized hatchbacks are still selling very well (at least over here), so they'll not be completely phased out in the next 5 years. Some manufacturers may do that, but pretty certainly not all of them. The larger saloons are a different story of course, I doubt we'll see any new direct competitors for the 3 series in the BTCC in the future.

The actual challenge for the BTCC as you mentioned will be the shift away from IC engines in the future. The introduction of the hybrid systems buys them a bit of time I think, but they'll have to look at the development of ETCR and how it's taken up by other series and the fans. Besides that, the circuits will have to think about the future as well. BTCC with its ~20min races may be well suited for electrification, but do places like Croft, Knockhill, Oulton Park have the necessary supply infrastructure to simultaneously charge 20+ race cars without causing a blackout in a radius of 20 miles around the circuit?

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

I had thought by now that the EU might have moved to legislate against OR at the very least hike taxes on SUVs to try and diminish the effect of climate change by private mobility. However, who runs the EU? Germany. The lobbyists for the Kraut giants alone will no doubt be behind this not happening.

Why do people buy them? Herd instinct and copy catting. The size of the SUV is seen as prestige - my willy is bigger than yours nonsense. They are all hopeless at handling, but at town speeds ferrying unfit overweight future problems for the NHS (or children as they are otherwise known) to school and back it makes no odds.

It's only when you see the tanks on the other side of the pond that you realise how $%&#£@ up we are as a society. You don't need a box bigger than a Vietnamese families home to take your kids to school. Or rather, you do: it's called the school bus.

<disengage rant mode>

Ford in the US is out of the car market (other than the Mustang). Yanks only buy SUV tanks and enormous puck ups. I predict other car brands ceasing to build what we identify as "cars" before mid point this decade.

Are big SUV's already taxed? I thought the road tax for big engined vehicles in UK is higher - although like here in Ireland Hybryd makes a mockery of it I drove a Range RoverHybryd around Cork for a day and the ICE never turned off!

[auroan]

Originally Posted by Tja

The introduction of the hybrid systems buys them a bit of time I think, but they'll have to look at the development of ETCR and how it's taken up by other series and the fans. Besides that, the circuits will have to think about the future as well. BTCC with its ~20min races may be well suited for electrification, but do places like Croft, Knockhill, Oulton Park have the necessary supply infrastructure to simultaneously charge 20+ race cars without causing a blackout in a radius of 20 miles around the circuit?

ETCR cars currently cost the same as the old TC1 cars ($1m +) The tech would have to get a lot lot lot cheaper for it to trickle down to regional touring car series.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

Are big SUV's already taxed? I thought the road tax for big engined vehicles in UK is higher - although like here in Ireland Hybryd makes a mockery of it I drove a Range RoverHybryd around Cork for a day and the ICE never turned off!

I just plugged in a GLC as a random small/mid-size SUV to see how it compares with a Range Rover.

GLC (all models except hybrid) - £475 per year. First year ranges from £540 for the smallest diesels to £2175 for the AMG 63.
GLC EQ - £465 per year. First year is £15.

Range Rover (all models) - £475 per year. First year ranges from £1850 for the hybrid to £2175 for the V8.

So ignoring the first year tax - there is no difference in road tax between a small diesel-engined GLC and a large V8 supercharged RR.

[billy bleach]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I just plugged in a GLC as a random small/mid-size SUV to see how it compares with a Range Rover.

GLC (all models except hybrid) - £475 per year. First year ranges from £540 for the smallest diesels to £2175 for the AMG 63.
GLC EQ - £465 per year. First year is £15.

Range Rover (all models) - £475 per year. First year ranges from £1850 for the hybrid to £2175 for the V8.

So ignoring the first year tax - there is no difference in road tax between a small diesel-engined GLC and a large V8 supercharged RR.

So the Government are not serious then are they?......The reality is a small SUV like an Opel Mokka is no more or less harmful than the Astra its based on

[Tja]

Originally Posted by auroan

ETCR cars currently cost the same as the old TC1 cars ($1m +) The tech would have to get a lot lot lot cheaper for it to trickle down to regional touring car series.

Interesting, didn't know these numbers, thanks for adding them. True, we probably won't see them in national series any time soon. Still, for the BTCC they will be interesting to keep an eye on. At the very least to see how much interest there is from manufacturers and fans in the technology on circuit and - knowing Eurosport - what mistakes to avoid...

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

So the Government are not serious then are they?......The reality is a small SUV like an Opel Mokka is no more or less harmful than the Astra its based on

Probably not the best model to pick - the only variant I can find listed is the Mokka-e that has a zero tax.

I've had a look at the GLC EQ compared to the C Class.

GLC EQ 300 e - £465 per year. (CO2 is 59WLTP).
C Class EQ 300 e - £465 per year. (CO2 is 34 WLTP).

In the case of the Mercedes, I wouldn't say the SUV body is less harmful when it has nearly double the CO2 emissions of the saloon on the same platform.
Which I think backs up your point that they are not serious about forcing people into smaller engines.
I'm not sure how you can justify the same annual tax for a V8 supercharged Range Rover (CO2 318 WLTP) and a C Class saloon with a 2L engine?

[antnee]

Originally Posted by Tja

BTCC with its ~20min races may be well suited for electrification, but do places like Croft, Knockhill, Oulton Park have the necessary supply infrastructure to simultaneously charge 20+ race cars without causing a blackout in a radius of 20 miles around the circuit?

A few options are available;
- Use generators burning clean fuels (which is what some of the electric series are doing)
- Circuits install big storage batteries which can then provide the necessary peak demands during race weekends
- Circuits upgrade their electrical infrastructure as they will need to support charging at some point.

[antnee]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Probably not the best model to pick - the only variant I can find listed is the Mokka-e that has a zero tax.

I've had a look at the GLC EQ compared to the C Class.

GLC EQ 300 e - £465 per year. (CO2 is 59WLTP).
C Class EQ 300 e - £465 per year. (CO2 is 34 WLTP).

In the case of the Mercedes, I wouldn't say the SUV body is less harmful when it has nearly double the CO2 emissions of the saloon on the same platform.
Which I think backs up your point that they are not serious about forcing people into smaller engines.
I'm not sure how you can justify the same annual tax for a V8 supercharged Range Rover (CO2 318 WLTP) and a C Class saloon with a 2L engine?

The yearly VED rate is standardised across all cars now regardless of emissions. You get charged more for £40k+ value cars or 0 for electric
https://www.gov.uk/vehicle-tax-rate-tables

It is only first year rates which are based on emissions - the idea that it promotes buying the less polluting one in the first place. However in practise, it gets lost in the monthly PCP/HP/PCH payments so no one notices the difference.

[Sodemo]

ETCR, cars that weigh 1.5 ton and a Clio cup could probably corner faster...

[antnee]

Another point on the cost of electric bits for a race car. The BTCC could use the equivalent of what comes in a Tesla Model 3 Performance - maybe with a slightly larger battery.

[aland]

Originally Posted by antnee

A few options are available;
- Use generators burning clean fuels (which is what some of the electric series are doing)
- Circuits install big storage batteries which can then provide the necessary peak demands during race weekends
- Circuits upgrade their electrical infrastructure as they will need to support charging at some point.

at knockhill it is a genny that supplies the track during daytime, the mains grid supply is barely enough for lights and the tea urns, come btcc it is gennys that supply the teams. for the hybrid era it will be gennys brought in for the race weekend,

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A) MG and Subaru were not on the grid this season

B) MG5 and Subaru Impreza would both be eligible.

The MG5 Estate wouldn't be eligible as far as I know because its an electric only variant here. The new MG5 saloon as recently shown won't be coming to the UK.

[Pringles]

MSV seem to be jumping the gun a bit on selling tickets for next years Btcc.

It's unlikely we get out of the current type of restrictions we are in before next winter as the earliest by the sounds of things, so I have a feeling it will be another year of not spectators for at least most of the series.

I really hope not but can't see things getting much easier for at least the next 6 months minimum.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Pringles

The MG5 Estate wouldn't be eligible as far as I know because its an electric only variant here. The new MG5 saloon as recently shown won't be coming to the UK.

I didn't realise that being an EV mattered?

[S griffin]

I wonder if MSV know something we don't. Things are looking to be back to normal by spring, so I wonder if that's what they are planning for. I am almost certain we will see spectators back by 2021 at some point. It hasn't really been the same without fans there

[redshoes]

Have MSV put the prices up? I never got around to buying any tickets for 2020 and don't remember what I paid in 2019, but I don't recall them being that expensive.

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I didn't realise that being an EV mattered?

I thought the vehicle had to be available with a road going ICE as part of the regulations?

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by redshoes

Have MSV put the prices up? I never got around to buying any tickets for 2020 and don't remember what I paid in 2019, but I don't recall them being that expensive.

I paid £31 for weekend admission last couple of years when I went to MSV circuits. Its up to £38 now for weekend admission.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Pringles

I thought the vehicle had to be available with a road going ICE as part of the regulations?

Possibly, I'm not certain.
I know that if there isn't a suitable engine from the family range you have to use the TOCA unit.
I was assuming an EV would be in the same situation?

[Pringles]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Possibly, I'm not certain.

I know that if there isn't a suitable engine from the family range you have to use the TOCA unit.

I was assuming an EV would be in the same situation?

Not sure then but I as I said I thought it being an EV only car here would mean it isn't eligible. Hopefully someone can confirm.