The never ending Toyota return to Le Mans (LMP1) Saga

[Dario911]

I'm pretty sure new P1 will not be so slow as in the intention of ACO. The lack of downforce will be gained in different ways, engineers only need time to maximize aerodynamics of the car. Car will be also lighter, and a more powerful hybrid system will help it in acceleration. Together with a narrower body and a higher top-speed, this will help to compensate the lack of downforce. I think P1 will be lightyears within 3:30 limit. If I had to make a prediction, I would say 3:25 or so.

[avvelenamento]

Originally Posted by TF110

Its called being relative. Nobody inferred you were speaking of lmp2. I brought it up because the pace of those cars with less than 500hp is hovering close to 3:30 per lap at LeMans now! If you do not understand something, just ask. 3:38 is close to 3:30. They have no hybrid power, 'skinny' tires, small rear wings, are down about 40-50hp and weigh 900kg. Next year lmp1 wont be as slow as some think. The 'less drag' will be helpful at LeMans. The front wing will be helpful at other shorter tracks. The low weight will be beneficial for both as will the hybrid power.

Nowadays lmp2 have less than 500hp only on the regulamentation papers, is not a secret that honda and nissan engines are 500+ hp powerfull. If you think that 3.38 is close to 3.30 well... if there is someone that doesn't understand, don't think is me because 3.38 is much closer to 3.40 than 3.30. In 2008 lmp2 pole was 3.32, in 2010 was 3.33... that WAS objectively close to 3.30. Current lmp2 specs will be used until 2016 (or maybe 2018 can't remeber now) and very likely won't never be able to run under 3.36. Now if you use lmp2 performances to make a comparable prediction for 2014 lmp1 performances, well is an useless argument in my opinion... ACO wouldn't make new specs to let lmp2 run close to lmp1 anyway. So at the end I repeat you my prediction (the same of 3 days ago) at le mans 2014 work lmp1 3.25 or under; 2014 private lmp1 betwen 3.30-3.33; lmp2 3.37-3.38. In HDF tracks work and private lmp1 will lose around 2 seconds compared to 2013 timelaps but however lmp2 will stay far.

[TF110]

Track conditions were not ideal at LeMans this year. You even stated such in another thread. And lmp2 is not 500+hp. Take a look at the top speeds compared to GTE. Of course the Lotus was very quick, but they were not quick in overall time. Efficiency is where its at, and next year the cars will be even better in this area.

[deggis]

TS030 made it to the Frankfurt 15 min presentation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...BJUsAkec#t=120

Turn on blatant PR filter.

[avvelenamento]

Trust my words, honda and nissan lmp2 engines can make something more than 500hp. Tops speeds at le mans are not always sincer, you first have to consider low drag or the low aero setting before to think or speculate something. If I remember correctly, in 2012 during the race an oreca 03 hit 320km/h.
What that mean? absolutely NOTHING. Lotus T128 was the car with the best top speed because of a better low drag design, beyond that it seems that is not a so great car.

[kober]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Either way, by 2015 I;'d bet they will be right back at pre-2014 speeds. Engineers Always seem to figure out ways to go faster while the rules always find ways to slow the cars, and we end up with about the same speeds every time.

Not necessarily. FIA/ACO have now a cost-effective and easy-to-apply measure to slow them down to the 3:30 level (if it's still the goal). And it can be adjusted year by year. Yes, fuel allowance. LMP1s might not be close to the 3:20 level again, ever.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Trust my words, honda and nissan lmp2 engines can make something more than 500hp. Tops speeds at le mans are not always sincer, you first have to consider low drag or the low aero setting before to think or speculate something. If I remember correctly, in 2012 during the race an oreca 03 hit 320km/h.
What that mean? absolutely NOTHING. Lotus T128 was the car with the best top speed because of a better low drag design, beyond that it seems that is not a so great car.

The Lotus was in its first race. Probably ran low wing. Thats why its lap time was not very competitive. Plus its a coupe which is better on the straight. I dont trust your words as much as data. The cars make less than 500hp, just because they can doesn't mean they do. The restrictors take care of that. The whole point is lmp2 cars are not far off 3:30@LeMans and they are lacking in power, heavier in weight, no hybrid etc. compared to 2014 lmp1. No one should worry much about the cars being slow on ultimate pace. Toyotas solution should be a very powerful car with the double hybrid. The only concern I have is if the fuel flow is equal.

[avvelenamento]

but you can trust me or not, this doesn't make lmp2 cars less powerfull than 500hp as are for real. You trust too much on indicative data and you think that truth can be found there. When 2011 specs debuted, estimated power by ACO was not over 550hp. Sure... 2011 908 was able to hit more than 340km/h as 2010 908 HDi was able to do, no doubt the car was 600+ hp powerfull. Some time later I found confirmation of my theory on Mike Mulsanne site (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmarch11.html) where he too speculates that 908 was 600+ hp powerfull after paul ricard test.
Anyway I still can't understand how could you think that running in 3.38 is close to 3.30, but I guess this is a mystery I will never solve :/
However it doesn't matter, next year lmp1 will be however competitive enough to overlap again lmp2 in around 30 min. or less.

[silente]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

but you can trust me or not, this doesn't make lmp2 cars less powerfull than 500hp as are for real. You trust too much on indicative data and you think that truth can be found there. When 2011 specs debuted, estimated power by ACO was not over 550hp. Sure... 2011 908 was able to hit more than 340km/h as 2010 908 HDi was able to do, no doubt the car was 600+ hp powerfull. Some time later I found confirmation of my theory on Mike Mulsanne site (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmarch11.html) where he too speculates that 908 was 600+ hp powerfull after paul ricard test.
Anyway I still can't understand how could you think that running in 3.38 is close to 3.30, but I guess this is a mystery I will never solve :/
However it doesn't matter, next year lmp1 will be however competitive enough to overlap again lmp2 in around 30 min. or less.

I don't know exactly how quick the car will be in 2014 and how much power in total (electric + Combustion engine) their powertrains will have.

Anyway, i totally agree with avvelenamento regarding max power. 2011 cars were claimed to have more or less 550hp...
Yes, maybe at the wheel (so including also gearbox efficiency)! So the power at the engine shaft was, IMHO, much closer to 600 hp.

With the drag numbers you can expect from such a car, you would never reach the speed they reach with 550hp.

When i built my R18 model for driving simulators, that was immediately clear, as it was immediately clear looking to Mulsannescorner calculations.

http://drracing.wordpress.com/

[Flo aus N]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

but you can trust me or not, this doesn't make lmp2 cars less powerfull than 500hp as are for real. You trust too much on indicative data and you think that truth can be found there. When 2011 specs debuted, estimated power by ACO was not over 550hp. Sure... 2011 908 was able to hit more than 340km/h as 2010 908 HDi was able to do, no doubt the car was 600+ hp powerfull. Some time later I found confirmation of my theory on Mike Mulsanne site (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmarch11.html) where he too speculates that 908 was 600+ hp powerfull after paul ricard test.
Anyway I still can't understand how could you think that running in 3.38 is close to 3.30, but I guess this is a mystery I will never solve :/
However it doesn't matter, next year lmp1 will be however competitive enough to overlap again lmp2 in around 30 min. or less.

If you calculate the numbers, by playing with drag coefficient (based on raising corner speeds), frontal area, etc it becomes obvious, that the Diesel of Audi and Peugeot are / were doing well above 600 hp, close to 650 hp. gwylion made some nice calculations, based on the kg/h fuel flow and the target of CO2 in this forum.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3152765

[TF110]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

but you can trust me or not, this doesn't make lmp2 cars less powerfull than 500hp as are for real. You trust too much on indicative data and you think that truth can be found there. When 2011 specs debuted, estimated power by ACO was not over 550hp. Sure... 2011 908 was able to hit more than 340km/h as 2010 908 HDi was able to do, no doubt the car was 600+ hp powerfull. Some time later I found confirmation of my theory on Mike Mulsanne site (http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newsmarch11.html) where he too speculates that 908 was 600+ hp powerfull after paul ricard test.
Anyway I still can't understand how could you think that running in 3.38 is close to 3.30, but I guess this is a mystery I will never solve :/
However it doesn't matter, next year lmp1 will be however competitive enough to overlap again lmp2 in around 30 min. or less.

Why are you citing power figures of past lmp1 cars? The "3:38" you bring up is from this year with tricky track conditions. Imo that is not indicative of what the cars are capable of. If you want to believe thats all the lmp2 cars are capable of, then they must be making a lot less than 500hp! Thats why I said compare the GTE top speeds to the lmp2. GTE is 300+kg more yet not too far away in top speed.

[avvelenamento]

Originally Posted by TF110

Why are you citing power figures of past lmp1 cars? The "3:38" you bring up is from this year with tricky track conditions. Imo that is not indicative of what the cars are capable of. If you want to believe thats all the lmp2 cars are capable of, then they must be making a lot less than 500hp! Thats why I said compare the GTE top speeds to the lmp2. GTE is 300+kg more yet not too far away in top speed.

908 and r18 are not so old lmp1... my aim was to make you understand that usually indicative power never match true real power of racing cars as you use to think. I repeat again, is not about to think or to believe that lmp2 are less powerfull than 500hp, because... are not less powerfull than 500hp. It's reality not an opinion. If you agree or not isn't relevant.
You focus too much on LM top speed. Only at LM, GTE and LMP2 top speed are (not always) comparable. Check top speed of other tracks and you will see that there is a 10km/h difference between fastest lmp2 and fastest gte.

To give you the ultimate proof of real lmp2 power, here is it:
During 2008-2009 super GT500 seasons, nissan gt-r used the VK45DE engine (basicly the same engine that zytek tuned for lmp2 in 2011)
http://supergt.net:8080/ftp/classic/...ex_j001.htm?tm
look here, the car used 2x28,3mm restrictors with a power output not less than 500hp.
Actually nissan engine in lmp2 use a 1x40mm restrictor.
Area of disk is r^2 x 3,14 (pi greek).

28,3 / 2 = 14,15mm
(14,15 x 14,15) x 3,14 = 628,7 mm^2 per restrictor
628,7 x 2 = 1257,4 mm^2 total surface

40 / 2 = 20mm
(20 x 20) x 3,14 = 1256 mm^2 total surface


As you can see the lmp2 restrictor and gt500 restrictors give basicly the same surface. If in gt500 the restrictor gave 500hp, it simply gives the same to the lmp2 car. It's math that agrees with me

[TF110]

10kmh difference for a car 300+kg lighter. No need to quote restrictor sizes from 2 years ago when you see those statistics.

We can stop with this now. Even if lmp1 cars make "500hp", they'll be under 3:30 @LeMans.

[avvelenamento]

Why when someone gives you hard time you decide that is time to stop?
Let me give you a last lesson. You're wrong again, just the judd 3.4 V8 had an estimate power of something more than 500hp. Rebellion toyota and honda engines power are close to 530-540hp, maybe a bit more powerfull this year with larger restrictors.
Difference between me and you is that you give opinions trying to impose on others, I give my opinion with evidences that support my argument that's the reason why I don't care if you agree or not with me, I'm satisfied already because facts agree with me.
About the top speed you're wrong again... LM first section of mulsanne is around 2km long, usually also GTE run at le mans with the lowest DF setting available. Is easy to understand that in a so long straight GTE can reach max speed even if 345kg heavier. In all other tracks there isn't a straight so long, so lmp2 have an higher top speed than GTE because lighter and someway a bit more powerfull. Even my 5 years old nephew can understand this.
At the end just ask your self gt-r GT500 had 500hp with the same restrictors surface, why a nissan powered lmp2 should not have 500hp with the same restrictor surface?

Anyway I guess I have to stop my self. You know, technical discussions are always interesting, but I fear that a certain moderator can use this fair argumentation between me and you to give me bad reputation points, as he likes to do, after I checked my CP. Let's say that I would like to see again that little square under my avatar again green. So at the end, Believe or not in the evidence I shown you, it's your choice. World doesn't change.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Why when someone gives you hard time you decide that is time to stop?

The only thing hard is understanding your words or the point you are trying to make. I said we can stop this because you don't make sense replying to my point.

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Let me give you a last lesson. You're wrong again, just the judd 3.4 V8 had an estimate power of something more than 500hp. Rebellion toyota and honda engines power are close to 530-540hp, maybe a bit more powerfull this year with larger restrictors.

Those ARE NOT lmp2 engines

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Difference between me and you is that you give opinions trying to impose on others, I give my opinion with evidences that support my argument that's the reason why I don't care if you agree or not with me, I'm satisfied already because facts agree with me.

Facts like restrictor sizes from 2011? Do you even know what I'm getting at?

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

About the top speed you're wrong again... LM first section of mulsanne is around 2km long, usually also GTE run at le mans with the lowest DF setting available. Is easy to understand that in a so long straight GTE can reach max speed even if 345kg heavier. In all other tracks there isn't a straight so long, so lmp2 have an higher top speed than GTE because lighter and someway a bit more powerfull. Even my 5 years old nephew can understand this.

I don't even know what this is about. The last post you say lmp2 is ~10kmh faster. Thats not a huge difference from GTE when you consider the weight disparity. Then you claim they run the lowest downforce possible? Is that so? And lmp2 runs...? We don't know this.

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

At the end just ask your self gt-r GT500 had 500hp with the same restrictors surface, why a nissan powered lmp2 should not have 500hp with the same restrictor surface?

You quoted a car/engine from 2011; 2013 it is not. They're slower by your own admission in a previous post. Slower=less power imo.

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Anyway I guess I have to stop my self. You know, technical discussions are always interesting, but I fear that a certain moderator can use this fair argumentation between me and you to give me bad reputation points, as he likes to do, after I checked my CP. Let's say that I would like to see again that little square under my avatar again green. So at the end, Believe or not in the evidence I shown you, it's your choice. World doesn't change.

I'm trying to say that lmp2 is close to this "3:30" per lap currently with much less power than lmp1. So next year when lmp1 runs less power that "3:30" will still be beaten.

[avvelenamento]

nissan lmp2 engine 2011 restrictor was 1x39.1mm, 2012-2013 is 1x40mm. Is it clearer now?
2x28,3 = 1x40 = at least 500hp.

In your previous post you said
"Even if lmp1 cars make "500hp"
MAKE is simple present of the verb to make. Who reads can't understand you were talking about 2014 engines. To be more accurate you had to write:
"Even if lmp1 cars will make "500hp"
Anyway I think that 500hp (from thermal engine) will be developed only by hybridless cars with higher fuel flow. Toyota and Porsche petrol engine alone will develope something like 450hp, the estimated final power of 500-550hp will be given by thermal engine final power + fading out of electric torque release.

"The last post you say lmp2 is ~10kmh faster. Thats not a huge difference from GTE when you consider the weight disparity. Then you claim they run the lowest downforce possible? Is that so? And lmp2 runs...? We don't know this."

Are you kidding me? you used the comparable GTE-LMP2 top speed at le mans to support you argumentation. I just told you why at LM, GTE can have a similiar top speed (lenght of mulsanne section and LDF setting of GTE) while in other tracks this is not possible. If you think that 10km/h isn't a big difference well...

Trust, isn't easy to get your point too.

[Pandemonium]

What I believe and what I want to believe is that lmp1's in 2014 will be faster because first off we don't know how much power the combustion engine will make but didn't the recent jaguar x-175 concept have ridiculous horsepower with small displacement and consumption?. Second, the cars will be lighter and narrower having possibly higher top speed. And even if they have less grip because of slightly narrower tires weight will compensate for that. Third, the aero rules with the front wing and new technologies. Fourth, the increased hybrid power.

I have a point. But who cares we have an amazing lmp1 season next year with audi, porsche,toyota's rumoured increased budget and rebellion for sure. Who knows there might be more surprises. And lmp1 cars are ridiculously fast anyway cheers.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by kober

Not necessarily. FIA/ACO have now a cost-effective and easy-to-apply measure to slow them down to the 3:30 level

Installing proper curbs to stop everyone completely ignoring the Ford chicane is the easiest way.

[Maelochs]

Not really related to Toyota, but I strongly agree.

I am heartilly tired of seeing drivers ignore track limits with impunity. Either put in some beefy curbs or start handing out serious penalties.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

Not really related to Toyota, but I strongly agree.

I am heartilly tired of seeing drivers ignore track limits with impunity. Either put in some beefy curbs or start handing out serious penalties.

I agree with the sentiment, but real curbs launch the cars. Maybe a precast concrete Jersey barrier near the edge of the pavement? Then an off line car would hit the Jersey barrier but they move to absorb the impact, causing less damage to the driver.

One reason I like street races is the precast concrete Jersey barriers create clearly defined track limits and the drivers who dare to go closer but not too close gain a benefit, like in the old days.

[CTD]

Originally Posted by miatanut

I agree with the sentiment, but real curbs launch the cars. Maybe a precast concrete Jersey barrier near the edge of the pavement? Then an off line car would hit the Jersey barrier but they move to absorb the impact, causing less damage to the driver.

One reason I like street races is the precast concrete Jersey barriers create clearly defined track limits and the drivers who dare to go closer but not too close gain a benefit, like in the old days.

Not to go off topic, but Jersey Barriers is not ideal for Street races!
If anything they launch the cars into the air easier than ordinary street curbs. The best inner barrier (towards the track) is Water barriers or tire barriers.
(I say this with the experience of being Marshal at 3 City races, where 2 accidents where hugely escalated by Jersey Barriers)

Back to topic of Toyota and Le Mans

[TF110]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

nissan lmp2 engine 2011 restrictor was 1x39.1mm, 2012-2013 is 1x40mm. Is it clearer now?
2x28,3 = 1x40 = at least 500hp.

I dont think you can compare restrictor sizes when its two vs. one. Just because the total area can be figured out, the two types could be very different. Unless you know they are both the same shape of restrictor you can not compare two different series. Even if they were both circle shaped restrictors, Super GT's total area is 1257.4 square mm and lmp2's is 1256 square mm. Plus the engines in lmp2 are designed for longevity not sprint racing like Super GT.

In your previous post you said
"Even if lmp1 cars make "500hp"
MAKE is simple present of the verb to make. Who reads can't understand you were talking about 2014 engines. To be more accurate you had to write:
"Even if lmp1 cars will make "500hp"

You're arguing semantics . Its a general statement.

Anyway I think that 500hp (from thermal engine) will be developed only by hybridless cars with higher fuel flow. Toyota and Porsche petrol engine alone will develope something like 450hp, the estimated final power of 500-550hp will be given by thermal engine final power + fading out of electric torque release.

This has been discussed before and the calculations say otherwise. If like you say lmp2 make over 500hp, but 2014 lmp1 cars will be 450hp without hybrid power: imo lmp2 should be just as fast as lmp1, or even faster! That doesn't sound right.

Are you kidding me? you used the comparable GTE-LMP2 top speed at le mans to support you argumentation. I just told you why at LM, GTE can have a similiar top speed (lenght of mulsanne section and LDF setting of GTE) while in other tracks this is not possible. If you think that 10km/h isn't a big difference well...

Trust, isn't easy to get your point too.

No. Im not kidding you. P2 should be even faster on the long straights of LeMans if its really over 500hp. GTE makes around 490hp according to Corvette (2012), so how can low wing account for a difference of ~6mph? If lmp2 were making 500hp with weight more than 700lbs. less, they should be a lot faster than just that ~6mph difference. Toyota rumored to make 1100+ hp for short periods. Theres no way the 2014 cars will be less powerful than lmp2. They should be rockets out of turns.

[Maelochs]

What this discussion needs is facts---not calculations, estimates, imaginations, etc. You guys have beaten the horse until it is crippled and bleeding, but so far nothing definitive has been introduced, which means you have the opportunity to beat the horse until it is horse jelly, and even then, nothing will be solved.

Sometimes it is okay to just let it go---agree to disagree, accept that opinions can differ, all that.

I think we have enough horse jelly to last us for a while.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

I think we have enough horse jelly to last us for a while.

LOL. good one

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Maelochs

What this discussion needs is facts---not calculations, estimates, imaginations, etc. You guys have beaten the horse until it is crippled and bleeding, but so far nothing definitive has been introduced, which means you have the opportunity to beat the horse until it is horse jelly, and even then, nothing will be solved.

Sometimes it is okay to just let it go---agree to disagree, accept that opinions can differ, all that.

I think we have enough horse jelly to last us for a while.

The voice of reason - praise the Lord. I hope people will listen to you as most don't listen to me!