[WEC] FIA World Endurance Championship

[Mal]

Originally Posted by deggis

With the "more is more" logic being applied here, extending Bahrain to 48 hours will immediately make it a blue-riband event.

You have missed the point

[Beetle]

With the world of Le Mans racing looking extra turbulent these days, with the likes of new LMP1 manufacturers coming on board shadowed by the resignation of Strakka for 2013 and being down one Toyota, I thought I'd make a new, completely original proposition for the 2014 FIA WEC surrounding the class divisions. As I've said before, I believe the major problem that the WEC is facing is lack of a substantial entry count.

My proposition is as follows: expand the WEC's class range to being more like the ALMS. That means more types of cars, more homologation to go along with it, and lots more entries. Also, it would require a large amount of loosening of the current seasonal entry rules. The change would allow wild card entries into the races, perhaps designated by the number 0 before the number the car runs in its respective season (like the ALMS/ILMC did at Sebring a couple of years ago). So, without further ado, I present my proposition to provide solutions to the current turbulence the WEC is experiencing:

::: CLASS STRUCTURE :::

LMP1
Using the 2014 ACO regulations currently set in place for next year, which will presumably draw more entrants. Open for wild card entries if the opportunity arises (although I doubt there will be any, as LMP1 has disappeared from motor racing except in the WEC).

LMP2
Using the 2014 ACO regulations. Would basically be the same as 2013. Would allow Daytona Prototypes at any USCR doubleheader rounds.

GT
Only a part-time class. Only put in place for Fuji round. For the combined regs for Super GT and DTM. Possibly a permanent class if enough teams showed interest. The new GT1.

LMPC
Only a part-time class. Only put in place for double-header weekends with series with LMPC, like the COTA weekend, Silverstone weekend, and Fuji weekend.

GTE-Pro
A combination of current GTE-Pro teams and "Pro" teams in any series with GT3 and FIA driver ranking systems. Super GT300 open.

GTE-Am
A combination of current GTE-Am teams and 'Pro-Am" and "Gentleman" teams in any series with GT3 and FIA driver ranking systems. Super GT300 open.

GTC
A full season class consisting of spec Porsche 997 GT3 Cup cars and USCR GTD cars on COTA weekend. Has potential to grab interest from full-season entrants to part-time entrants. Accepts GTD wild card entries from USCR doubleheader rounds.

::: EXPLANATION :::

Essentially this proposition is all about accepting part-time entries graciously and not shying away from combining series to make larger, more exciting races. The classes with the biggest room for massive entry lineups are GTE and GTC, although the GT500 cars for GT in a combined race of WEC, AsLMS, and Super GT at Fuji Speedway could potentially produce a massive GT field as well. Essentially, it's about expanding the horizons and allowing more teams to enter. Instead of having a number of turbulent, unstable series about to go under (with the exception of DTM/Super GT and Blancpain), divided because of trivial reasons, there would be one, almost universal sportscar racing series, which is what the WEC wants to be, I'm sure.

EDIT: Another bit... take the Fuji weekend. The 3 Hours of Fuji will be an AsLMS/Super GT combination and then, on the same weekend, there will be the 6 Hours of Fuji. The whole points scoring and number plate issue (so frivolous, I know) is what throws the WEC managers off. Why not just set up a qualifying session(s), put the cars on the grid by fastest lap time, not by class (and I'm pretty sure each of the three series do that anyway), and go? A six hour endurance race. Super GT has already agreed to alter its normally lap-dictated rules to accommodate for the AsLMS to make the race and competition bigger and better. Why can't the WEC do the same - there is a potential for an 80+ car race, folks!
::: POTENTIAL CALENDAR :::

If we take a look at the current WEC calendar, there are several doubleheader (tripleheader if you are counting Le Mans) events. Without the advantages of an altered schedule to get even more potential series to latch on to WEC races, we could still have an amazing entry count for most of the races.

1. 6 Hours of Silverstone (WEC: 31, ELMS: 23, Total = 54)
2. 6 Hours of Spa (WEC: 35, Total = 35)
3. 24 Hours of Le Mans (56 in total)
4. 6 Hours of Sao Paulo (WEC: 28, Total = 28)
5. 6 Hours of Circuit of the Americas (WEC: 28, ALMS: 35, Total = 63)
6. 6 Hours of Fuji (WEC: 29 [including KCMG] Super GT: 39, AsLMS = about 20?, Total = 85-90)
7. 6 Hours of Shanghai (WEC: 29 [including KCMG], Total = 29)
8. 6 Hours of Bahrain (WEC: 28, Total = 28)

Also, one of the goals would be to align several series together when making schedules over the winter. That would mean working out the minor logistical kinks with series the USCR, Super GT, regional Carrera Cup series, etc.

--

Anyway, those are my thoughts regarding the future of the WEC. What do you guys think about the proposition?

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Mal

You have missed the point

I don't think I did, but obviously it was a provocation But I don't get how just extending the race length will make a low-interest race suddenly much more special.

In before using PLM as an example: that also coincided with the start of the first and at that time only LMP series, and despite the literal name, in the beginning it was probably more of "a little Sebring" anyway, meaning that there was already precedents in the country for such races.

[Salamus]

Beetle, I don't like it. First of all there are way too many classes. Four is enough. LMPC was a failure in Europe. And there is no need to add more GT cars.

Secondly, I think you are forgetting that ALMS won't exist next year. It will be impossible to combine the USCR and WEC fields. Combining fields with ELMS may work but many of the ELMS entries are already in the WEC. And there is no way that WEC and Super GT will race together. Besides the fact that they use completely different cars, I don't think Super GT want an overall winner that is not a Nissan, Lexus, or Honda.

Finally, you shouldn't have worries about the size of the WEC field next year. Only LMP1 is lagging in number of cars but the multitude of announcements so far will definitely strengthen the field, at least for next year. LMP2 is huge, GT-Pro will hopefully get bigger, and GT-Am has a good number of cars.

[Purist]

Deggis, it isn't merely about lengthening the race. It's about having a race duration that stands out on the WEC calendar, with the race being run at an attractive venue that can handle such an event, and actually attracting a crowd to that venue.

You couldn't pull this off at Shanghai, Bahrain, or Buddh. I think it's possible at Sepang. However, if it's going to be Asia, I think your best bet is Suzuka.

Beetle, I largely agree with Salamus, plus there isn't a track out there that could host a field the size of the one you're talking about for Fuji, except, maybe, for Le Mans itself. Frankly, if you make the field much bigger than it is, I think Fuji becomes too small in some respects, and then Suzuka and Autopolis become MUCH more appealing to accommodate the field for such a long race.

Of course, the trouble with Suzuka is the timing with F1 in the latter portion of the season.

Beetle, there is a practical limit to how many entries you can really handle well. Also, you forget the FIA component, and part of that tends to be giving their top series a certain, exclusive, vibe, to try and help make them seem that much more special. There's a reason that, aside from Le Mans, ALL of the WEC events are held on F1 circuits.

BTW, if you're going to combine ELMS and WEC at Silverstone, you might as well do so at Spa also. That track is one of the real gems out there, and it can actually deal with a 60-car field.

I don't think it helps the impression of the series that it lacks rounds in either Germany or Italy. Also, part of the trouble IS the changes to some of the circuits over the years. By far the biggest is Silverstone. It's just so flat and featureless, a function of being a former airfield, of course. However, it used to stand out as a SIMPLE, HIGH-speed circuit. Now, it's very convoluted and drawn-out, and you're not always certain when the camera switches just where on the circuit you're looking. It's still quick, but Silverstone is now slower than Spa, Paul Ricard, or Monza; it used to be FASTER than Le Mans itself!

Most of the newer circuits just don't stand out enough in their own right to host a true, signature event. Apart from when you're going under the wings above start/finish, Shanghai might as well be anywhere; it's even worse at Bahrain, Yeongam, and Buddh. At least Fuji and Sepang have some real landmarks, apart from a big F1 grandstand at picture right and a big F1 pit building at picture left.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Beetle, I don't like it. First of all there are way too many classes. Four is enough. LMPC was a failure in Europe. And there is no need to add more GT cars.

Secondly, I think you are forgetting that ALMS won't exist next year. It will be impossible to combine the USCR and WEC fields. Combining fields with ELMS may work but many of the ELMS entries are already in the WEC. And there is no way that WEC and Super GT will race together. Besides the fact that they use completely different cars, I don't think Super GT want an overall winner that is not a Nissan, Lexus, or Honda.

Finally, you shouldn't have worries about the size of the WEC field next year. Only LMP1 is lagging in number of cars but the multitude of announcements so far will definitely strengthen the field, at least for next year. LMP2 is huge, GT-Pro will hopefully get bigger, and GT-Am has a good number of cars.

To quote Mal, "I think you missed the point."

I'm not talking about Daytona Prototypes and Super GT500s being full-season entries. What I'm saying is that they can all race together during doubleheader weekends. Super GT500s would not be fighting for the overall win; they would be fighting for a win in their respective, separate series classes. Also, regarding LMPC, I think it could become a success if it gains enough of a following. For example, DKR Engineering, HVM Status GP, Boutsen Ginion, and Gulf Racing... all struggling to keep up with LMP2 finances. If they all entered LMPC, then I think it could snowball and become successful.

Originally Posted by Purist

Deggis, it isn't merely about lengthening the race. It's about having a race duration that stands out on the WEC calendar, with the race being run at an attractive venue that can handle such an event, and actually attracting a crowd to that venue.

You couldn't pull this off at Shanghai, Bahrain, or Buddh. I think it's possible at Sepang. However, if it's going to be Asia, I think your best bet is Suzuka.

Beetle, I largely agree with Salamus, plus there isn't a track out there that could host a field the size of the one you're talking about for Fuji, except, maybe, for Le Mans itself. Frankly, if you make the field much bigger than it is, I think Fuji becomes too small in some respects, and then Suzuka and Autopolis become MUCH more appealing to accommodate the field for such a long race.

Of course, the trouble with Suzuka is the timing with F1 in the latter portion of the season.

Beetle, there is a practical limit to how many entries you can really handle well. Also, you forget the FIA component, and part of that tends to be giving their top series a certain, exclusive, vibe, to try and help make them seem that much more special. There's a reason that, aside from Le Mans, ALL of the WEC events are held on F1 circuits.

BTW, if you're going to combine ELMS and WEC at Silverstone, you might as well do so at Spa also. That track is one of the real gems out there, and it can actually deal with a 60-car field.

I don't think it helps the impression of the series that it lacks rounds in either Germany or Italy. Also, part of the trouble IS the changes to some of the circuits over the years. By far the biggest is Silverstone. It's just so flat and featureless, a function of being a former airfield, of course. However, it used to stand out as a SIMPLE, HIGH-speed circuit. Now, it's very convoluted and drawn-out, and you're not always certain when the camera switches just where on the circuit you're looking. It's still quick, but Silverstone is now slower than Spa, Paul Ricard, or Monza; it used to be FASTER than Le Mans itself!

Most of the newer circuits just don't stand out enough in their own right to host a true, signature event. Apart from when you're going under the wings above start/finish, Shanghai might as well be anywhere; it's even worse at Bahrain, Yeongam, and Buddh. At least Fuji and Sepang have some real landmarks, apart from a big F1 grandstand at picture right and a big F1 pit building at picture left.

To respond to the first statement I put in bold: Fuji wouldn't be too small, in my opinion. I know you are the "track guy" and have a lot more experience than I do in circuit analyzing in whatnot, but just look at the math. 90 cars, which would be a bit of a stretch, lined up on the front straight at Fuji would be just about 430 meters, if each car was given one car length behind the other. That is roughly a third of the whole front straight length (about 1550 meters). So I don't see it being a problem at all. However, as far as pit stalls go, that may be an issue. But they fixed that in Le Mans...

And to answer the second emboldened statement, I understand exactly what you mean. I was at Paul Ricard HTTT just a week ago to watch the Blancpain Endurance Series round there. Although there were tons of cars with some amazing drivers, it didn't have that "spark" that Le Mans did, or any other WEC round, for that matter. Yes, I get what you mean - but does the exclusivity deteriorate relative to the entry size? Sounds odd to me...

To your 3rd statement: I completely agree. But the reason they don't do that is money, money, money. However, with large entry counts, disregarding the whole "exclusivity factor", comes money. And it doesn't matter who drops out - if a team like HVM Status GP drops out, someone's there to take its place in a heartbeat. So, what would you rather have... a colossal grid for each race that doesn't quite have that "exclusive vibe" to it, and also getting to race at more tracks? Or would you rather have it as it is now? Who knows, maybe a lot of people wouldn't like it and it would be a total flop. But I think it's almost worth a try... just a couple of rounds to test the waters, like a WEC/AsLMS/Super GT combo in Fuji and an WEC/ALMS combo in Austin.

To collaborate with your final statement, again, I completely agree. A 300-car, 24 hour race at Shanghai with all the best sportscar drivers around the world isn't enough to tip the tables on a regular old 6 Hours of Spa. But think about the possibilities if you could break that whole new-guard, Formula 1 style exclusivity. You wouldn't have those boring, 6 hour Asian snooze fests, as I call them. You'd have something unique and exciting every new race you go to!

[TF110]

The Super GT raced in an FIA race at Suzuka before when the series was JGTC iirc. The current GT500 cars could place well within lmp2 ranks, probably between them and lmp1. Next year theyll be lighter (1000kg rumored) with a good deal of power from their turbo engines. GT1 doesn't compare, this class should be the basis for the next Gen DP's, imo at least.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by Beetle

To quote Mal, "I think you missed the point."

No, I didn't miss the point. I'm trying to bring some reality to your fantasy all-star championship.

Originally Posted by Beetle

I'm not talking about Daytona Prototypes and Super GT500s being full-season entries. What I'm saying is that they can all race together during doubleheader weekends.

And I'm telling you that is unrealistic. Next season, USCR will potentially have 40+ car fields and the WEC will have roughly 30. There is no way you are going to get 70 cars on a track! And even if you did, the USCR P class will not be happy playing second fiddle to WEC P1.

Originally Posted by Beetle

Super GT500s would not be fighting for the overall win; they would be fighting for a win in their respective, separate series classes.

That is precisely the problem! If the GT500 class is considered the top class in Super GT, why would they play second fiddle to P1 and P2? Nissan, Lexus, and Honda don't care about having an ultimate super Japanese sportscar race, they care about fighting each other and winning OVERALL.

[Mal]

Originally Posted by deggis

I don't think I did, but obviously it was a provocation But I don't get how just extending the race length will make a low-interest race suddenly much more special.

In before using PLM as an example: that also coincided with the start of the first and at that time only LMP series, and despite the literal name, in the beginning it was probably more of "a little Sebring" anyway, meaning that there was already precedents in the country for such races.

The point was it needed a headline or 'blue riband' event that the fans and media would pick up as more important than the rest and hence the entrants would do the same. The length of the race is only one factor that would enable that to happen.
You are right it would only work in certain places and my thoughts were USA or Japan - I particularly like Japan as the US already has Sebring, Daytona & PLM and unless one of those is handed over to WEC, then I dont see space for another one.

With the interest from Japanese manufacturers you would hope that they would all get behind a local event and help promote the event to make it a new 'must see' event.

[trickyd]

WEC's problem is the lack of any 'blue riband' races outside of Le Mans where manufacturers might see a benefit from winning, like Sebring & PLM, or going back Daytona and Nurburgring 1000km, or going back even further the Targa Florio and Mille Miglia. Silverstone and Spa have the advantage of being before Le Mans, so at least can get a decent entry for some practice, but what benefit is there in spending a fortune on finishing in the minor placings in Bahrain, or Shanghai? None at all, so people don't bother. The WEC, as a 'World Sportscar Championship' should be a collection of the best/biggest sportscar races in the world, not a way for the FIA to give their white elephant Tilkedromes another race each year. As long as the FIA wants the series to be exclusive and 'F1 Lite' it will fail. The biggest obstacle to this is the loss of the ALMS which has meant Sebring and PLM can no longer be on the calendar. So what can you do about that if you don't want to end up playing up to the France's and having DP's everywhere? I don't know, but some races at Monza and Nurburgring would be somewhere to start.

[gregtummer]

^^^^ Road America and Mosport

[wewantourdarbyback]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Yes, separating those races... so pointless!!

But it did give those of us at the track two big races to watch rather than just the Sunday WEC, which I for one enjoyed.

[isynge]

Originally Posted by wewantourdarbyback

But it did give those of us at the track two big races to watch rather than just the Sunday WEC, which I for one enjoyed.

I'd agree with that - initially I thought like Beetle - and figured it was a real missed opportunity to have a superb big grid for Sunday, but that would have robbed us of a very entertaining first hour on Saturday, when the ELMS guys had the opportunity to really go for it - and I appreciated the variety that the GT3 entries in particular brought to the table.

Probably horses for courses, and Pickett / Dyson would especially be welcome additions to the COTA grid (to say nothing of the HPD quarter) but realistically the much more profound issue is how to make the full WEC season appealing to entrants - which is an argument we're not quite nailing yet.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by isynge

I'd agree with that - initially I thought like Beetle - and figured it was a real missed opportunity to have a superb big grid for Sunday, but that would have robbed us of a very entertaining first hour on Saturday, when the ELMS guys had the opportunity to really go for it - and I appreciated the variety that the GT3 entries in particular brought to the table.

You are right... it is a double-edged sword, really. The weekend would be longer and really have more racing (as far as sheer hours go), but it's a shame to see two rather small fields when they could have been combined to become one mega race. It's a Catch 22 - what would you like better, two small races or one huge one? I'd rather have the one huge one, but I'm finding out quickly that I am vastly outnumbered.

Originally Posted by Salamus

That is precisely the problem! If the GT500 class is considered the top class in Super GT, why would they play second fiddle to P1 and P2? Nissan, Lexus, and Honda don't care about having an ultimate super Japanese sportscar race, they care about fighting each other and winning OVERALL.

True, true. Perhaps the best alternative is allowing some of the GT300 teams come in by choice to the WEC rounds. That, I think, is a fair compromise and an appealing alternative to both extremes. The problem is this: WEC just wont allow anyone from GT300. But with the merging of GT classes to create a universal class, I think that the present GTE-Pro and GTE-Am class will get a whole lot bigger.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

^^^^ Road America and Mosport

Both have obvious problems - they are too antiquated, and their facilities cannot hold international, FIA-standard events. Mosport is far too small and also too far away from any major airport or city that transportation would be an absolute nightmare for the teams. Road America would be better, but it just doesn't have that "exclusive", Formula 1-esque vibe to it. It's about good ol' grassroots racing, which, I agree, is missing in the FIA WEC, but it's just not realistic the way things are going.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by isynge

Probably horses for courses, and Pickett / Dyson would especially be welcome additions to the COTA grid (to say nothing of the HPD quarter) but realistically the much more profound issue is how to make the full WEC season appealing to entrants - which is an argument we're not quite nailing yet.

It all gets back to money, of which there is a rather finite amount in sports car racing. Le Mans matters a lot and the establishment of the WEC effectively increases the cost of racing there by a substantial amount. For some teams, the additional cost of the WEC is simply too much, especially if they are also looking at having to buy and do development work on a new car for next year.

That Rebellion, Strakka, and Toyota all fall into this category simply highlights just how precarious the financial condition of the series is. And let’s not forget that the WEC has six fewer hours of racing in 2013 as compared to 2012 and that shipping costs have been greatly reduced.

Want to increase the number of cars at the non-European WEC events after Le Mans? To do so, you’ll have to increase the amount of money in the sport. And that does not mean simply attracting more manufacturers in P1. The economics of the series are very different for privateer teams with all pro driver line-ups (be they in P1 or GTE-Pro) as compared to the manufacturers. The economic model for teams built around gentlemen drivers (be it in P2 or GTE-Am) is different still.

And yes, that is difficult. The WEC is suppose to do that, by creating a high end product that races only at Le Mans and at selected F1-quality circuits around the world. The gamble is that by going strongly into markets outside Europe and the U.S., that it will bring substantial amounts of additional advertising and sponsorship money to endurance racing. So far, it doesn’t seem to be doing that. That will hopefully change over time — actually, it really must change over time — or the WEC will be nothing but a bridge too far.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

It all gets back to money, of which there is a rather finite amount in sports car racing. Le Mans matters a lot and the establishment of the WEC effectively increases the cost of racing there by a substantial amount. For some teams, the additional cost of the WEC is simply too much, especially if they are also looking at having to buy and do development work on a new car for next year.

That Rebellion, Strakka, and Toyota all fall into this category simply highlights just how precarious the financial condition of the series is. And let’s not forget that the WEC has six fewer hours of racing in 2013 as compared to 2012 and that shipping costs have been greatly reduced.

Want to increase the number of cars at the non-European WEC events after Le Mans? To do so, you’ll have to increase the amount of money in the sport. And that does not mean simply attracting more manufacturers in P1. The economics of the series are very different for privateer teams with all pro driver line-ups (be they in P1 or GTE-Pro) as compared to the manufacturers. The economic model for teams built around gentlemen drivers (be it in P2 or GTE-Am) is different still.

And yes, that is difficult. The WEC is suppose to do that, by creating a high end product that races only at Le Mans and at selected F1-quality circuits around the world. The gamble is that by going strongly into markets outside Europe and the U.S., that it will bring substantial amounts of additional advertising and sponsorship money to endurance racing. So far, it doesn’t seem to be doing that. That will hopefully change over time — actually, it really must change over time — or the WEC will be nothing but a bridge too far.

Yes, it is all very precarious. But Toyota has very deep pockets - as I said before, they are the largest automobile manufacturer in the world. Rebellion and Strakka don't even come close as far as finances go - even Audi doesn't have as much money to spend as Toyota.

For non-European events, you don't necessarily have to put more money into it. Just turn them into "blue riband events", like turning 6 Hours of Shanghai into the 12 Hours of Sepang. That'll attract a bigger crowd, but who wants to spend precious money from their almost empty banks to go to just another 6 hour snooze-fest at Bahrain or Shanghai? Plus, if you allow GT300...

[gregtummer]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Both have obvious problems - they are too antiquated, and their facilities cannot hold international, FIA-standard events. Mosport is far too small and also too far away from any major airport or city that transportation would be an absolute nightmare for the teams. Road America would be better, but it just doesn't have that "exclusive", Formula 1-esque vibe to it. It's about good ol' grassroots racing, which, I agree, is missing in the FIA WEC, but it's just not realistic the way things are going.

Isn't Mosport only 30 miles or so from Toronto?

Also, a user on the old ALMS forum said WEC was initially going to run Road America until COTA threw a boatload of cash at them.

[Purist]

Beetle, I'm NOT in support of the FIA "exclusivity" tack with the series by running almost entirely at F1 circuits, including some of the newer ones. I was simply pointing out that that is what they have chosen to do thus far, and your model doesn't fit with that.

I also wonder if they don't want the other races having more entries than Le Mans itself.

I can understand wanting two main races, one for each day. Personally though, for Spa and Silverstone, I think I'm still leaning toward combining WEC and ELMS in one race, and coming up with a good support package for Saturday (CER and one of the GT series, or maybe even Blancpain on Saturday at Silverstone). I also think it would make sense to have one of the races combine AsLMS and WEC.

A 3.6-mile circuit, like Monza or Suzuka, is busy with 60 cars out there. The Fuji F1 layout is only 2.835 miles. Here's something to look at as a start:
Lime Rock- (1.500 miles/33 cars)x5280ft/mile=240ft/car
Fuji Int'l- (2.835 miles/90 cars)x5280ft/mile=166.3ft/car

It's not about whether you can line up the whole field on the front straightaway with ease, but about the traffic and car density around the lap. Also important is the number of heavy compression zones around the lap, which often lead to collisions during the race, because of the function of the change in physical distance between cars as they rapidly lose speed. There were comments in the race thread that 33 ALMS cars at Lime Rock was too much, and the track was too short for the race. Lime Rock only has one serious compression zone in a 1.5-mile lap; Fuji has 5-6 of them in a 2.835-mile course.

Sebring, at 3.7 miles around, was a traffic headache, or even nightmare for some, with 56 (2011) or 63 (2012) cars on the grid. The CTSCC did combined GS and ST races at VIR, I think it was. That is a quick circuit (certainly quicker than Fuji), and measures 3.27 miles to the lap. Those two classes have a MUCH lower speed differential than you'll see in LM-type series. It was still a mess in terms of incidents and traffic overall.

(Remember, Sebring was a longer track, with MUCH more runway incorporated into the layout, back when it had those huge grids of cars. It was 4.11 miles in 1987-90, 4..86 miles in 1983-86, and prior to that, it was 5.2 miles around.)

I haven't even mentioned that, as an FIA series, there's NO WAY the WEC would start anywhere near 90 cars at Fuji, based on the FIA's own formula for how many cars will be allowed to start on a given circuit.

With some nods to the current Sportscar landscape, I'd do something like this for the calendar, if I had my druthers.
1. Monza 1000km
2. Spa 1000km
3. Le Mans 24 Hours
4. Silverstone 6 Hours
5. Road America 500 Miles
6. Interlagos Mil Milhas
7. Potrero de los Funes 8 Hours
8. Sepang 6 Hours
9. Suzuka 1000km
10. Autopia 800km

I know, in reality, there certainly will be a race in China, but you're NOT going to make a signature event happen at any of the existing Chinese circuits that could host an event like this: Shanghai and Zhuhai. Ordos, Goldenport Chengdu, etc are all too short for a Sportscar endurance race, based on the FIA's own tables.

Mosport and Road America have had major updates over the last several years; they're both fully Grade 2 compliant. Also, Mosport isn't that small next to Interlagos. It might even be easier to handle up traffic around Mosport as compared to Interlagos. And yes, Greg, I'd heard that tidbit about Austin throwing some money toward the WEC to get the 6 hours at their facility.

Getting back to the grid sizes, keep in mind that a 30-car field was considered pretty good back in the Group C period, before the 3.5-litre formula killed it off. So, given that we've got GTs that are now rather more sophisticated than a Porsche 962 or Jaguar XJR, 30 regular entries for the WEC doesn't seem so bad.

[gregtummer]

Some traffic density during the 2010 season:

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by Purist

Beetle, I'm NOT in support of the FIA "exclusivity" tack with the series by running almost entirely at F1 circuits, including some of the newer ones. I was simply pointing out that that is what they have chosen to do thus far, and your model doesn't fit with that.

I also wonder if they don't want the other races having more entries than Le Mans itself.

I can understand wanting two main races, one for each day. Personally though, for Spa and Silverstone, I think I'm still leaning toward combining WEC and ELMS in one race, and coming up with a good support package for Saturday (CER and one of the GT series, or maybe even Blancpain on Saturday at Silverstone). I also think it would make sense to have one of the races combine AsLMS and WEC.

A 3.6-mile circuit, like Monza or Suzuka, is busy with 60 cars out there. The Fuji F1 layout is only 2.835 miles. Here's something to look at as a start:
Lime Rock- (1.500 miles/33 cars)x5280ft/mile=240ft/car
Fuji Int'l- (2.835 miles/90 cars)x5280ft/mile=166.3ft/car

It's not about whether you can line up the whole field on the front straightaway with ease, but about the traffic and car density around the lap. Also important is the number of heavy compression zones around the lap, which often lead to collisions during the race, because of the function of the change in physical distance between cars as they rapidly lose speed. There were comments in the race thread that 33 ALMS cars at Lime Rock was too much, and the track was too short for the race. Lime Rock only has one serious compression zone in a 1.5-mile lap; Fuji has 5-6 of them in a 2.835-mile course.

Sebring, at 3.7 miles around, was a traffic headache, or even nightmare for some, with 56 (2011) or 63 (2012) cars on the grid. The CTSCC did combined GS and ST races at VIR, I think it was. That is a quick circuit (certainly quicker than Fuji), and measures 3.27 miles to the lap. Those two classes have a MUCH lower speed differential than you'll see in LM-type series. It was still a mess in terms of incidents and traffic overall.

(Remember, Sebring was a longer track, with MUCH more runway incorporated into the layout, back when it had those huge grids of cars. It was 4.11 miles in 1987-90, 4..86 miles in 1983-86, and prior to that, it was 5.2 miles around.)

I haven't even mentioned that, as an FIA series, there's NO WAY the WEC would start anywhere near 90 cars at Fuji, based on the FIA's own formula for how many cars will be allowed to start on a given circuit.

With some nods to the current Sportscar landscape, I'd do something like this for the calendar, if I had my druthers.
1. Monza 1000km
2. Spa 1000km
3. Le Mans 24 Hours
4. Silverstone 6 Hours
5. Road America 500 Miles
6. Interlagos Mil Milhas
7. Potrero de los Funes 8 Hours
8. Sepang 6 Hours
9. Suzuka 1000km
10. Autopia 800km

I know, in reality, there certainly will be a race in China, but you're NOT going to make a signature event happen at any of the existing Chinese circuits that could host an event like this: Shanghai and Zhuhai. Ordos, Goldenport Chengdu, etc are all too short for a Sportscar endurance race, based on the FIA's own tables.

Mosport and Road America have had major updates over the last several years; they're both fully Grade 2 compliant. Also, Mosport isn't that small next to Interlagos. It might even be easier to handle up traffic around Mosport as compared to Interlagos. And yes, Greg, I'd heard that tidbit about Austin throwing some money toward the WEC to get the 6 hours at their facility.

Getting back to the grid sizes, keep in mind that a 30-car field was considered pretty good back in the Group C period, before the 3.5-litre formula killed it off. So, given that we've got GTs that are now rather more sophisticated than a Porsche 962 or Jaguar XJR, 30 regular entries for the WEC doesn't seem so bad.

They already have...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_Hours...f_the_Americas

Also, regarding support series to host an event on a Saturday, it would be wise to choose an event that already runs support races for other series OR doesn't have a class distinction (like the FIA GT Series, GT Open, or Blancpain). Yes, I know what you're saying: they have 3 classes! But each one of the classes technical regulations are the same.

[gregtummer]

C'mon Beetle. We were talking about how WEC was originally planning to run Road America before COTA threw a boatload of cash at them to run there instead.

[Beetle]

Originally Posted by gregtummer

C'mon Beetle. We were talking about how WEC was originally planning to run Road America before COTA threw a boatload of cash at them to run there instead.

Sorry, I didn't read post #3443...

In that case, it's a shame that they chose COTA over Road America. Road America is a classic, COTA is just another boring, featureless Tilkedrome. I was just excited they decided to do something other than the same old Sebring every year.

That's where the WEC is dropping is dropping the ball - money moves like switching from a planned Road America 6 hours to COTA 6 hours. At least I can drive to COTA easily.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Both have obvious problems - they are too antiquated, and their facilities cannot hold international, FIA-standard events. Mosport is far too small and also too far away from any major airport or city that transportation would be an absolute nightmare for the teams. Road America would be better, but it just doesn't have that "exclusive", Formula 1-esque vibe to it. It's about good ol' grassroots racing, which, I agree, is missing in the FIA WEC, but it's just not realistic the way things are going.

Transportation would be a nightmare?

Strange, it is just about as close to a major airport as Road Atlanta??

Strange, because it is the same size??

Strange, doesn't it have the same FIA rating? Have you seen the changes?

[Scooter185]

Originally Posted by Beetle

Sorry, I didn't read post #3443...

In that case, it's a shame that they chose COTA over Road America. Road America is a classic, COTA is just another boring, featureless Tilkedrome. I was just excited they decided to do something other than the same old Sebring every year.

That's where the WEC is dropping is dropping the ball - money moves like switching from a planned Road America 6 hours to COTA 6 hours. At least I can drive to COTA easily.

Tavo Hellmund actually designed COTA. While Tilke gets the credit for it, it's not like other tracks with his name on them; it's most definitely not a Tilkedrome.