How do we increase the gate at meetings

[redshoes]

I’m not sure how valid the comparisons to football are. No disrespect but the average club meeting is hardly equal to a premiership match, more like division 3 or even conference and I don’t know many footy clubs at that level getting 1000s of spectators on a regular basis.

I live about half an hour’s drive from Bovingdon short oval track. I’ve never seen it advertised in the local papers, maybe I’m just too far out of their perceived catchment area. The burger vans, toilets and admission fee is pretty much what you’d expect at say Brands Hatch, there’s no grandstands, no funfair, no autograph session and very little in the way of a PA system – in fact all the things that we’ve argued need fixing are just as relevant here yet the place is packed.

I suspect part of the appeal for oval fans is the short format races with minimal gap between them. The gap between races is something that’s been improved in recent years (Racing Ahead format anyone?) but it’s still a factor. I realise there are times you need to recover a stranded car or repair a barrier but nothing will put people off more than 15 mins of dead time between each race. In theory a good commentator can fill in the gap, that is assuming the PA system can be properly heard – another one of my pet hates.

Then there’s the old chestnut of full grids. No one wants to pay to see 6 cars circulate for 10 laps. That’s down to the clubs to combine classes/cull obsolete series, something we’ve debated many times before on here.

The idea of allowing clubs to retain a share of the gate seems to be a major stumbling block. Perhaps the way forward is to offset the gate receipts against circuit hire charges, then pass those savings on to the drivers in the form of reduced entries fees. Get that right and the lower fees will encourage more drivers to enter, giving you a bigger grid, which would then appeal to more spectators. That’s a very oversimplified view but it needs clubs and circuits to work together.

Getting the local press involved is really best handled by the circuit, but that needs assistance from the clubs. Go back a few years to when Octagon were running things. I don’t know what their local press was like but their website had little or no details about what was on that weekend other than just “championship raceday”. What championship? What races? Often they didn’t even say which club was running the event. In fairness to MSV they do seem to be a little more on the ball.

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by HiRich

Sorry, this has turned into a rant.

Rich, that has to be the least ranting and well thought out rant I've ever read. Full of common sense and logical thought processes. If it were up to me, you'd have the job. I suspect one problem may be, though, that the job doesn't actually exist, and it should.

[PTs Bro]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Rich, that has to be the least ranting and well thought out rant I've ever read. Full of common sense and logical thought processes. If it were up to me, you'd have the job. I suspect one problem may be, though, that the job doesn't actually exist, and it should.

Spot on Woolley, lets hope that by some miracle there is an influencial member of the racing "elite" reading this in the next few days and that they take some notes, better still they contact HiRich and employ him bloody quick.

[ss_collins]

right well I have to say a lot of you are barking up the wrong tree but are in the right bit of woodland. Oval racing really is where we should look to. The whole system of racing clubs and series is fragmented and confusing...

Stock car meetings pitch themselves differently - a look at www.spedeworth.co.uk clearly shows that. Oval fans tend to turn up to say Wimbledon on a sunday night regardless of actually whats scheduled to be on track.

Perhaps its because you can hear the commentary, perhaps its because you can follow the races easily as the scoreboard is so well placed, perhaps its down to the exhaustive promotion by the promoters or maybe it that most of the drivers get thier characters across well. Not to mention the huge 'show element' girls, proper driver interviews etc..

So what would happen in my world? I would simplify the way it runs, and the ways it promotes itself. Really get specific - never refer to 750 MC Formula Vee championship or BRSCC Star of the Midlands FF1600....

instead Formula Vee UK and just plain Star of the Midlands. Have championship finales rather than final round of the such and such championship. For a punter who isn't yet an MN or AS reader, Fvee and FF have as much draw as F3 - simply because to them its all just racing.

commentators should never refer to driver simply by his name or his number but both - ie "and a fantastic move round the outside of paddock by 230 Dave Longhurst"

maybe silly nick names should be more prevalent...

I really like the suggestion of HiRich that every car should have an information sheet about it and the driver... cheap and easy to do.

Also dig at brand here - where the hell is the local marketing? there is NOTHING in the Bromley area and probaly less in sevenoaks & Essex. There is an occasional competition / badly done story in the local rags but thats about it. Not world beating PR is it? Where are the bus shelter ads - why are there no cars on display the weekend before a race meeting in Bromley, Croydon and at Lakeside?

ITS NOT DIFFICULT GUYS!!

Circuits should force the clubs to get the local drivers in touch with the press - which will choose thier favourites and they will become those cheered on... look at Carl Boardley and Ipswich.

I have brought this thread to the attention of 'the powers that be' but to be honest I can't see it gettting much done. The sport is learning too slowly, its not ticket prices its value for money. Simple things - there is no sign on the A20 or M20 saying whats coming up at brands and at what time.

Bear in mind the short ovals run with such good crowds, they don't charge entry fees. FVee, FF16, Stock Hatch, Pickups, Legends, Minis, Radicals and fair few others are all capable of putting on a cracking show everytime, yet the circuits will put more effort into bigging up poorer races... WHY???

Rant off for now

[chezza]

Well said, but then I'm biased!

Do you mean entry fees as in drivers entry?!

[HiRich]

SS is correct about short oval, though I would say 'as well as" rather than "instead of" GRM, DoT and Castle Combe (and indeed other sporting events). It's about identifying best practice - a good rule of marketing is that there's nothing new, just old ideas re-interpretted.

I have never been to a short oval (bit pathetic, as Wimbledon is just down the road). Clearly it has certain innate advantages. Most obvioulsy the small space keeps the crowd together, and therefore easier to service. And of course full-circuit visibility. But there are stupid little details (like number and name) which you need to spot and adopt. What's needed is a fact-findng trip with a handful of:
- Competitors
- Spectators (regulars and virgins)
- And especially some people who have that skill of spotting the details that matter.
Then review the observations and decide which are irrelevant (e.g. suggesting Mallory is cut to half mile track with 10 racers would be an obvious conclusion, but patently wrong), which are obviously transferrable, and which need adapting or inspire another idea. Test the free and cheap ones, investigate feasibility on the more complex and expensive ones.
Most events I have attended could do a lot better - lots of little changes at minimal cost. Even big events get it wrong: I remember when the Spitfire Cafe at GRM did builder's strength tea (in a china cup) from the urn and a fantastic breakfast with powdered scrambled egg - I was surprised and disappointed when they went to a coffee machine and normal catering fare. Stupid, petty, but I noticed.

On "entry fees" I certainly meant competitor rather than spectator, and I'm pretty certain SS did as well.

[ss_collins]

A fact finding trip with MSA attendance has been ageed to though not yet sorted out. Rich go to wimbledon. Sunday 5pm - every week - this weekes meeting looks mega - get there early though or you'll be standing (comfy seats and carpets are first come first served

[Anuauto]

Quote from CCC Magazine a few years ago on oval track racing:"...populated by steely-eyed Essex men with tatoos, beer guts, pockets full of used 50s and a shooter in the boot".

My own recent observations of NASA Autograss: Populated by largely rural-dwelling competitors and (numerous, often family) spectators who in the main have not enjoyed the educational standards of those participating in MSA motorsport. A family atmosphere, 2 extremely cheap classes of cars virtually anyone can afford to compete in (+ 7 or so much more expensive, high-spec classes).

Cruises (legal or illegal): massive numbers.

Common thread: these are not the areas of society primarily reflected in the unelected governing body and central administrators of "our" branch of the sport. Ours is a minority sport and may now be a minority motorsport? Here endeth the first lesson?

[Neil1982]

I think that one of the major problems in getting people to come and watch club motorsport is the fact that the main advertisement to the average public of what motorsport is all about happens to be Formula 1 (The only series to have prime time terrestrial TV coverage). I think most people will admit unless you appreciate what the drivers are capable of, and the technical aspects of the cars themselves, watching a 2 hour parade on TV is not the most exciting thing to do on a Sunday afternoon. Personally I go and tinker with my own car in the garage.

When I suggest to some of my friends that they come to a club motorsport event, their response is often along the lines of "if I can't be bothered to watch a parade on TV, why would I pay good money to go and watch amateurs parade around a circuit on my weekend."

We all know that club motorsport, (or even national motorsport such as F3) is far more interesting to watch, but until Bernie can sort out F1 (the supposed flag ship of motorsport) I think we will struggle to change peoples perceptions. Given a choice of watching F1 and BTCC on a Sunday afternoon I know which one I would chose. I hope ITV extend there coverage this season.

On the other hand Castle Combe always seems to pull the punters in?

[DougK]

As a marshal I have noticed numbers or spectators and marshals drop.

The reasons are quite clear to me:

1) Most circuits are S**Tholes! They are untidy and unhospitable. There are very few facilities (toilets, foodstalls etc) and those that are are normally poor. Certainly on normal club days there is nothing and often even the bar is not open. Also proper camping/accomodation for the public, competitors and marshals!

2) Most other sports seating is provided as standard - not for extra cost or in other cases (snetterton for instance) there is actually none available.

3) There is nothing else to do other than watch the on circuit action. With this there are often big gaps and waiting around. (big exception 750MC meetings!). You need other things that the public can paticipate in (karts perhaps, arcade machines and playgrounds for kids). Perhaps somewher where parents can leave small kids to be looked after whilst they enjoy the action

4) There are small grids which doesn't encourage lots of "action"

5) There is little or no advertising.

To solve this it needs investment into the circuits to improve facilities. Only the
owners can do this or owners in conjunction with clubs/sponsors

It would help if the circuit owners/managers spoke to the public and ask what they want! They need to understand the requirements.

The clubs should be allowed any revenue from gate receipts - the circuits charge them enough anyway - hence to encouragethe clubs to market events etc. It would then be up to the club to decide if to charge or not.

As a start I would suggest that entrance to get the public in is free - revenue will be produced by selling food, drink, merchandise, entertainment etc - 500 people spending £5 on food and drink is better than 10 people paying £8 each to get in and £5 each on food! Once numbers increase then charge them a fair entrance price (£5-10).

Better use of track time and more co-operation between clubs to increase grids and cut back on so many meetings spreading both marshals and fans thinly.

As three of the circuits are now run/owned by BARC they should try it - they have no excuses. They are not renting them by the day fromn MSV etc. Maybe if they start the trend others will follow.

[neil_davidson2]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

For a punter who isn't yet an MN or AS reader, Fvee and FF have as much draw as F3 - simply because to them its all just racing...

Also dig at brand...

Whilst the first statement is undeniably true, I remember when I was first drawn to watch motorsport live I was far more likely to go to a meeting that was headlined by the BRITISH F3 or the BRITISH GTs or the BRITISH Touring Cars (and I remember F3000 before it got tagged onto the F1 package). And subsequently came to appreciate the other formulae on the program.

I think the national series (and international for that matter) could be used much better to promote club racing, and I think it can only be beneficial to have a high profile act as the headline event even if it's not the most exciting racing on display.

The F3 and GT package was put together and promoted as Powertour a little while ago and was successfully promoted with all kinds of non-racing attractions to augment the motorsport and create a family event. That all went by the wayside after a couple of years and I think it's time for a new strategy for these two series.

I realise that this will require the involvement of the MSA as well as the organising clubs to achieve but I think that headline acts are important to help get people through the gates.

[gixxer]

the problem with putting on extra things is cost like fun fairs etc all adds to it and does not mean any extra bodys through the gate.
It could also mean that the cost is passed down to the spectator,one of the bonuses a lot of circuits seem to be adopting is free addmisson for kids,that's a good way to get familys through the gate without afterall the entertainment is on the track!
but kids will be kids and get bored that's a fact of life its amazing what can entertain them,i should know i've got 4!!!!so the cheaper the better

[Al Weyman]

It is the same old arguments I was making 10 years ago whwn I was running ModProds and nothing changes and I dont suspect it will. There just does not seem to be the will at the top to do anythng about it. I have wrote this before but one of the best days racing I ever did was at Brands Hatch Sun newspaper free day. These were great meetings, thousands of people to watch made it feel real good to compete. I am sure the the newspaer got some positive sales out of the deal and the circuits although letting people in for nothing (if they had the Sun pass) must have done OK out of the deal. Also just think how many small boys went to those meetings and got hooked and are still involved today. Way to go I think.

[MGDavid]

Look, it really cannot be that difficult - if you can get FOUR THOUSAND people to go to a new IKEA store at midnight in the week just to spend vast sums of money on posh tat for the home, .... well, I rest my case....

[Chris Y]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

Perhaps its because you can hear the commentary, perhaps its because you can follow the races easily as the scoreboard is so well placed, perhaps its down to the exhaustive promotion by the promoters or maybe it that most of the drivers get thier characters across well. Not to mention the huge 'show element' girls, proper driver interviews etc..

One thing I notice that a lot of people leave out of discussions about short oval races: contact. I think that this is really what attracts a lot of people to short oval meetings. Look at how (sadly) popular bangers are..

Now obviously that's one thing that shouldn't be aped by circuit racing, but it's worth bearing in mind that people don't flock to Wimbledon just for the superb commentary, or the burgers, or the fine print in the programmes - perhaps some of them just want to see a good crash 'n' bash.

Of course, circuit racing can provide something similar: close racing. This is what should be encouraged in every race - close battles, big grids for lots of action, and more overtaking than a season of F1 (shouldn't be hard).

[HiRich]

On DougK's comments:
You are absolutely right on the five point that you make. However, there are only two ways of improving the situation:
- The circuit owner commits a lot of money in improving facilities and marketing (much more than MSV are investing in each of their circuits at present), with only limited confidence that the spectators will come. My experience (both direct and indirect) is that they won't. They need more confidence in spectators and revenue to justify this sort of expenditure (which is not just a one-off capital cost, but also ongoing servicing costs). To jump straight in, I would suggest that you are looking at a minimum of £500k capital expenditure and annual marketing spend increase of £250k (both could easily be doubled). Only Silverstone, with the F1 & WSB paydays could seriously entertain this sort of figure right now.
- They follow the slow build stategy I suggest. Start small, reinvest the increased income in gradually growing the marketing programme and taking on bigger and bigger on-site programmes. High risk early investment is avoided (at least until you see the first shoots of improved gates). I would suggest that we are looking at 3-5 years before we would really start to notice big improvements. It will take longer, but the risk levels are reduced significantly, and if it doesn't work, it's a lot easier to put the brakes on.

You suggest that the Clubs should get the gate receipts. But they should only get the profits if they are willing to take on the risk. There should, however, be a mechanic where the Club can share part of the risk, and then take a comparable share of the profit. Investment doesn't have to be solely financial (e.g. if the Clubs supplied decent previews for the Circuit website and local press PR), and some of the benefots are indirect (increased opportunity to recruit new members & competitors). I feel that the relationship between Circuit and Club is too much biased to customer-supplier. If it were more a partnership, new possibilities open up. This requires enthusiasm from both sides.

Free entrance is a perfectly valid promotional tool (though probably occasional rather than universal). The loss of income might be a few thousand pounds. You need to do the sums on what income would be generated from increased on-site spend from a larger crowd (and oof course, look for ways to increase spend per head). The mechanic can be used in several ways:
- Sponsored meeting (the Sun events)
- Pay today, free next week
- At Sentterton and Donington, offer visitors to the market entry for £1
- £10 per head, or £20 per car (which will encourage enthusiasts to bring virgins, who might just possible get hooked)

On Neil Davidson's comments:
Yes, there is more to do with the prestige of National (and international) events. My view is that starting with the Club events offers a better, more cost-effective opportunity, and builds a base to develop the prestige events.
A typical circuit might have 6 prestige events, but 20 club events (cars and bikes). Let's say you target an extra 5,000 at each prestige event (30,000 @ £20 entry = £600,000). For the same marketing spend and servicing costs, could you deliver a similar return from the 20 Club events? You would need 60,000 extra at £10 entry, average 3,000 per event, which is well within the target level I suggested. I believe the spend equality is realistic. I may be wrong, but it's worth investigating.
You also have the developing facilities being utilised week-in, week-out, not six times a year. Improved quality, and more opportunities to get income from added-value services (think of all those hospitality suites sitting empty - any contribution to overheads would be useful, however small).

Gixxer,
You are also correct. Added features do not get bums on seats (though it may get them to come back). You need to tell them. That's why off-site advertising needs to go hand-in-hand with on-site development. And the flipside is that if you spend a fortune getting 20,000 through the gate, only to offer them horseburgers and mud - you will never see them again. Days Of Thunder does this well, and does very well out of it. Mallory and the 750MC may not get Girls Aloud (though I hear the Wurzels are keen), but they aren't looking for 25,000 punters.


Right, shut up now, Richard

OK

[ss_collins]

One thing I notice that a lot of people leave out of discussions about short oval races: contact. I think that this is really what attracts a lot of people to short oval meetings. Look at how (sadly) popular bangers are..

Bangers are great and vastly entertaining to watch and drive. Also bear in mind the UK's top oval series (well one of 2) is National Hot Rods a NON CONTACT series... It should not be assumed that oval racing is all about crashing. In fact Stock hatch has more contact that a hell of a lot of Oval Formulea.

Its worth pointing out that there is one event that the club take the gate from... but I'm sworn to secrecy as to which. But I know its works well

[Al Weyman]

I used to do Hot Rods and it was every Hot rod drivers ambition to race on the big circuits. The lot I raced with (can't remember the name, not Spedeworth had Haringay Stadium and Arena) used to organise meetings at Lydden and Brands on the Clearways loop and these meetngs were totally oversubscribed and you had to book months in advance to get on the grid. I think this is what it is all about, long circuits are generally more for the benifit and enjoyment of the driver where as short citcuit is more for the entertainment of the crowd and although enjoyable competing on a 1/4 mile oval you did tend to get a bit dizzy after a few laps and yearned to get the car into top gear and open it up. :-)

[R59]

Don't we all enjoy preaching to ourselves. The converted.

Taketh thine pulpit, and take it out unto the masses.

Commenting on some of the diatribes in this thread, when asked what do I race it's usually "is it Bangers?"

The only way to get people through the gate is to entice them with offers of great entertainment at reasonable cost, with good facilities to back it up. Most circuits fall down on the latter. Many of our championships fall down on the former.

Once you have enticed them through the gate at a fiver a car load, or a quid each, your main battle is getting them to come back on a regular basis.

Racing has to be exciting , and has to make the right noises. F1 stock cars provide it, HotRods provide it, SuperSaloons used to provide it, BTCC provides it, etc...

Pointless going on, it's been said before hundreds of times.

Scrap the lot and start again.

Rob.

[ss_collins]

Scrap the lot and start again

agreed

[Rod Birley]

I have been campaigning for FIVE years to have a sign outside Brands Hatch saying when the next meeting will be, and what time it will start. A new sign has been promised this year (again) but at the moment it will not include the above information!

[Eric Falce]

There used to be a sign just past Brands on the left,very simple ,very effective and cheap,could always see when the next meeting was on,bikes or cars and plan that weekend.

[Al Weyman]

I have read all this and did my own share of bangng my head on the wall to no avail 10 years ago. It all sounds to me like certain parties are quite happy with this situation and there is a hidden agenda somewhere. Don't ask me what it is but some comments here like Rob's sign are not expensive to implement, I am in the sign business so I do know what I am talking about here, it just seems to me the will to rectify the situation is simply not there for what ever reason.

Incidently I am pretty sure Brands have their own in house signmaking and vinyl cuttng facility as I have seen ads for operatives in the sign trade mags, in which case the costs of a sgn would be very reasonable.

[Tim Falce]

The sign at Brands was all very good ten or twenty years ago but now the M20 is open how many people will see it?

[Al Weyman]

Still quite a few I would have thought especially locals who will pass on the word, better than nothing.