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Old 3 Dec 2008, 06:40 (Ref:2346103)   #26
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Originally Posted by mountainstar
Actually many irl teams are having a tough time getting sponsors for next year and you may see some teams disappear or find other avenues of motorsport. There is a good chance for instance, Rahal may focus completely on BMW in the ALMS as right now they don't have any sponsors for the irl team for 2009.

I've heard talk Honda may bail completely or cut their support even more.

The title sponsor for the irl didn't happen, that has been announced by the irl.

2007-2008 was the shock and awe panic in the markets, 2009+ is going to be a number of years of recovery even if GDP grows next year. Every racing series is going to take a hit. Over a thousand people in Nascar just got laid off, including a friend of mine. It's going to be tough times for everyone for a while.
but Honda signed a contract through 2013
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Old 4 Dec 2008, 15:45 (Ref:2347342)   #27
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Honda, as with the entire Japanese industry, is doing as well as can be expected in this global recession. So, more than likely Honda will honor its IRL contract.

The problem is other sponsors not being on board for 2009 and beyond.
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Old 5 Dec 2008, 07:10 (Ref:2347836)   #28
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It's gonna be interesting to see how Honda's retirement from F1 will affect it all.
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Old 5 Dec 2008, 12:57 (Ref:2348109)   #29
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A very ill timed comment Amar!

Could Honda justify running an IRL programme having just cut its employee numbers and scrapped its F1 team?
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Old 5 Dec 2008, 13:26 (Ref:2348138)   #30
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Honda's IRL programme is little more than badging Ilmor engines and sponsoring a number of races. HPD's developmental resources are all focussed on the Acura LMP programme.
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Old 6 Dec 2008, 01:41 (Ref:2348579)   #31
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Originally Posted by climb
It's gonna be interesting to see how Honda's retirement from F1 will affect it all.
The irl and ALMS are Honda USA's deal, but as I said before I had heard Honda wanted out pretty quickly from the irl. Apparently the cost/benefit ratio is not there plus no other manufacturers are interested in the irl nor the new 2011 formula and Honda doesn't want to start developing a new engine if no one else wants to either.

In this climate anything can happen, so don't be surprised if they yank the plug.

I've heard from Honda people that the main interest they have in motorsport is technology and competition. Right now the irl is just a marketing exercise with diminishing value. Honda has some indy 500 wins under it's belt now and the series tv and crowd figures keep going down, so what is the point anymore?
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Old 6 Dec 2008, 21:49 (Ref:2349198)   #32
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Honda's IRL programme is little more than badging Ilmor engines and sponsoring a number of races. HPD's developmental resources are all focussed on the Acura LMP programme.
A work force of over 2000 people directly working for Honda F1 is hardly "little more than badging Ilmor engines."

Not that they have produced much of a car, imho.
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Old 9 Dec 2008, 07:33 (Ref:2350750)   #33
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Originally Posted by mountainstar
The irl and ALMS are Honda USA's deal, but as I said before I had heard Honda wanted out pretty quickly from the irl. Apparently the cost/benefit ratio is not there plus no other manufacturers are interested in the irl nor the new 2011 formula and Honda doesn't want to start developing a new engine if no one else wants to either.

In this climate anything can happen, so don't be surprised if they yank the plug.

I've heard from Honda people that the main interest they have in motorsport is technology and competition. Right now the irl is just a marketing exercise with diminishing value. Honda has some indy 500 wins under it's belt now and the series tv and crowd figures keep going down, so what is the point anymore?
As usual your wishful thinking, ms, turns into the opposite!

http://italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=21588&cat=3

The problem is, Honda are making, not investing, money in the IRL. This should sound as a sufficient reason to keep in ...
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Old 9 Dec 2008, 09:55 (Ref:2350843)   #34
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Honda is committed to the IRL until at least 2013. And there still 3 different engine manufacturers still interested.
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Old 10 Dec 2008, 03:19 (Ref:2351465)   #35
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As usual your wishful thinking, ms, turns into the opposite!

http://italiaracing.net/notizia.asp?id=21588&cat=3

The problem is, Honda are making, not investing, money in the IRL. This should sound as a sufficient reason to keep in ...
No speake italiano.

I've heard they are considering pulling the plug. And no they don't make money on the irl engine program. What is paid for the lease doesn't cover all the costs of the engines and logistics, not to mention all the free tickets they buy and subsidizing of races they do. All that stuff about 2013, they can pull the plug anytime they want to. They just yanked it on the F1 team and nobody saw that coming.

The irl is in europe this week panhandling to Audi and Alfa and others to try to get an engine program from them. Good luck.
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Old 10 Dec 2008, 03:53 (Ref:2351472)   #36
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A very ill timed comment Amar!

Could Honda justify running an IRL programme having just cut its employee numbers and scrapped its F1 team?
Ill timed, indeed!

Still, Honda needs to promote itself to sell something, so in that sense the IRL engine badging is a real bargain compared to an overinflated F1 budget.

At least in the IRL, Honda can promote itself as a winning car company, even though it is highly dubious.
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Old 10 Dec 2008, 07:57 (Ref:2351582)   #37
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Originally Posted by mountainstar
No speake italiano.
The link is in English! You just could try it out

Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainstar
I've heard they are considering pulling the plug. And no they don't make money on the irl engine program. What is paid for the lease doesn't cover all the costs of the engines and logistics, not to mention all the free tickets they buy and subsidizing of races they do.
Dunno where you find these data: they've stopped investing in R&S since Toyota quit, and lease prices have not been reduced, yet the customers increased in number: you can trust they make money


Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainstar
All that stuff about 2013, they can pull the plug anytime they want to. They just yanked it on the F1 team and nobody saw that coming.
Absolutely true, but that can happen as well to the series you love.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainstar
The irl is in europe this week panhandling to Audi and Alfa and others to try to get an engine program from them. Good luck.
Yes but that move was scheduled previsoulsy, just in the perspective to make the series more interesting as you and others claimed. Nothing to share with the current problems.
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Old 10 Dec 2008, 21:46 (Ref:2352085)   #38
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A very ill timed comment Amar!

Could Honda justify running an IRL programme having just cut its employee numbers and scrapped its F1 team?
It is HPD.

check

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...h-the-program/
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Old 10 Dec 2008, 21:55 (Ref:2352094)   #39
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Honda has some indy 500 wins under it's belt now and the series tv and crowd figures keep going down, so what is the point anymore?
The official data shows

IndyCar unification brings strong commercial first half

July 3, 2008

http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...963&FS=INDYCAR

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=11893

North American open wheel racing is currently being rebuilt.
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Old 11 Dec 2008, 03:35 (Ref:2352278)   #40
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Originally Posted by bil588
The official data shows

IndyCar unification brings strong commercial first half

July 3, 2008

http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...963&FS=INDYCAR

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=11893

North American open wheel racing is currently being rebuilt.
If that was true teams would not be scrambling for sponsors and would not be going out of business.

Last I saw of the ratings they were pretty lame.
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Old 17 Dec 2008, 20:55 (Ref:2357224)   #41
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Originally Posted by bil588
The official data shows

IndyCar unification brings strong commercial first half

July 3, 2008

http://www.motorsport.com/news/artic...963&FS=INDYCAR

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=11893

North American open wheel racing is currently being rebuilt.
The ratings dropped in the 2nd half of the season, and were down overall for the year. More races had ratings go down than go up.
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Old 17 Dec 2008, 23:59 (Ref:2357338)   #42
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Looks like Porsche has said no way to indycar.

Too bad.
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Old 18 Dec 2008, 01:16 (Ref:2357366)   #43
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Originally Posted by mountainstar
Looks like Porsche has said no way to indycar.

Too bad.
Where did you see this? Too bad for Indycar but good news for Porsche's sportscar programmes in North America. That probably increases the likelihood of Audi going to Indy IMO, and that is not a bad thing for Indycar.
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Old 18 Dec 2008, 07:43 (Ref:2357440)   #44
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Looks like Porsche has said no way to indycar.

Too bad.
links or shens
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Old 18 Dec 2008, 17:08 (Ref:2357798)   #45
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Where did you see this? Too bad for Indycar but good news for Porsche's sportscar programmes in North America. That probably increases the likelihood of Audi going to Indy IMO, and that is not a bad thing for Indycar.
The irl was over there in Germany last week panhandling for Audi to join, but I would say a deal is unlikely but obviously anything could happen. Doubt it though with the economy headed for a depression and the irl being expensive without much return.

Audi would get more benefit by going rallying again or running it's sportscar and dtm programs.
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Old 18 Dec 2008, 17:27 (Ref:2357809)   #46
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Originally Posted by mountainstar
The irl was over there in Germany last week panhandling for Audi to join, but I would say a deal is unlikely but obviously anything could happen. Doubt it though with the economy headed for a depression and the irl being expensive without much return.

Audi would get more benefit by going rallying again or running it's sportscar and dtm programs.
I'm pretty sure Honda makes a profit from the IRL? Audi could come over to the IRL and sponsor the series the way they did the ALMS for not a lot of $$. If Porsche said no to IRL, and Audi said no, where are these new 4 manufacturers being talked about?
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Old 18 Dec 2008, 19:13 (Ref:2357861)   #47
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I cannot see any reason that Audi would join the IRL (certainly not given the current situation: both of the series' state of being, but also the overall global situation). What would they gain from it?

The IRL gets better ratings than the ALMS I guess, but the ALMS has much greater value brand image wise. Given they have pulled the plug on the LMS and ALMS, well, I just don't see why they'd ever want to go and get involved with an AOWS in a bad state during a global mince-fest.

It just doesn't make sense.
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Old 18 Dec 2008, 19:43 (Ref:2357871)   #48
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I cannot see any reason that Audi would join the IRL (certainly not given the current situation: both of the series' state of being, but also the overall global situation). What would they gain from it?

The IRL gets better ratings than the ALMS I guess, but the ALMS has much greater value brand image wise. Given they have pulled the plug on the LMS and ALMS, well, I just don't see why they'd ever want to go and get involved with an AOWS in a bad state during a global mince-fest.

It just doesn't make sense.
Dutton, I agree with you 100%. Indycar gains more from Audi than Audi gains from the IRL. ALMS is the best place in North America for a premium brand. I do not want Audi to go to the IRL but I thought it was a done deal based on press reports. Maybe if they were allowed to build their own chassis it would be a good idea, but not a the expense of a sportscar program.
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Old 18 Dec 2008, 20:59 (Ref:2357906)   #49
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I'm pretty sure Honda makes a profit from the IRL? Audi could come over to the IRL and sponsor the series the way they did the ALMS for not a lot of $$. If Porsche said no to IRL, and Audi said no, where are these new 4 manufacturers being talked about?
There are no four other manufacturers. Who told you that?

The irl invited manufacturers at their cost to a meeting this summer of which most declined and others sent low level people to see what was up. It's in the irl's interest to make people believe manufacturers are gagging to get involved but they are not.

You have to keep in mind, Indycar as a brand name means little compared to 15 years ago. Next year many races are on a minor cable network and tv ratings are poor compared to what is being asked for sponsorship. Attendances are inflated with free tickets from Marlboro, season ticket holders at Nascar tracks and other fluff which is going to vanish like a fart in the wind in this economy. The series has little recognition in the national media.

I can tell you from what I know Honda does not make a profit off it's engines. Anyone that tells you Honda banks big bucks off it's engine program, has no idea what the hell they are talking about. In addition Honda has significant expenditures from tv air time costs, advertising, marketing and funding races like Motegi, St. Pete and Mid Ohio. At Mid Ohio alone they spent millions on tickets for employees from it's local factory and other promotions.

These days with factories being idled and sales way down every manufacturer is reigning in costs quickly. In the good years when profits are in the billions, sure you can go out and blow millions on motorsport, but when people are losing jobs or soon to do so, it's hard to justify spending all that.

If the irl lands Audi then good for them, but already they have gone to Germany to try to inflate the balloon and I don't think Audi is buying, especially with the increasing influence of Porsche who has already said NO.
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Old 18 Dec 2008, 21:09 (Ref:2357918)   #50
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I cannot see any reason that Audi would join the IRL (certainly not given the current situation: both of the series' state of being, but also the overall global situation). What would they gain from it?

The IRL gets better ratings than the ALMS I guess, but the ALMS has much greater value brand image wise. Given they have pulled the plug on the LMS and ALMS, well, I just don't see why they'd ever want to go and get involved with an AOWS in a bad state during a global mince-fest.

It just doesn't make sense.
I'd agree to an extent. You have to look beyond the numbers. If an irl race gets a 1.0 rating and an ALMS race gets an 0.8 rating, it isn't everything. What is important is who is watching and why.

Audi in 2007 sold 115,000 cars out of 16 million cars sold in the USA. Small beans. Looking at average demographics of the irl there are probably few audi owners that are fans and even fewer that would attend an irl race. You compare that to the ALMS. Numbers overall might be a little lower but it is more Audi's demographic. Assuming for a moment that the cost of the irl and the ALMS would be the same, Audi would likely reach more of it's potential customers in the ALMS.

I think what Audi did for 2009 was just panic like every other manufacturer. That is what I guess based on first hand knowledge. They will be here for Sebring and the R8 GT3 is coming on line as well. I suspect they may be back in 2010 full bore if the economy goes out of panic mode.
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