Audi LMP1 Discussion

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Mostly because the US Government was like "Oh, you'll pay us $15 billion to shut us up? We'll gladly take it!" And yet, we have new Ford, Chevy, Dodge and GMC pick up trucks dumping tons more NOX and CO2 out their exhaust per vehicle than many (as in clustered) of the VW/Audi diesels that the EPA deemed questionable.

Say what you want about the EU regs (which apparently allowed defeat devices by not explicitly outlawing them, not as strict on NoX emissions), they do criminalize large pick up trucks and tractor trailer rigs more than the US does it seems. Believe me, if Ford or GM got caught doing the same thing, the US Government would go easier on them. After all, the Obama Administration bailed out GM and Chrysler. At least Ford trimmed the fat and avoided a Gov't bail out deal.

What does any of this have to do with breaking the law again?

VAG's price is so high because they can't just recall the car and change one part when the entire powertrain is fraudulent so they're stuck with committing to $10 billion in possible buybacks. Depending how many owners actually return their cars they may not pay anywhere near all of that. The fines are only $2.7 billion which is not in a massively different tier than the $1.1 billion Toyota paid over gas pedals, especially considering what VAG did was intentional rather than negligent and how strict the environmental legislation is. They've committed another $2 billion to development of clean air technology but that's mostly a show of good faith rather than a penalty.

[kvenom]

Hope Jarvis manages to catch on somewhere. Guy paid his dues for so long and was really coming on this year.

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by carbsmith

What does any of this have to do with breaking the law again?

VAG's price is so high because they can't just recall the car and change one part when the entire powertrain is fraudulent so they're stuck with committing to $10 billion in possible buybacks. Depending how many owners actually return their cars they may not pay anywhere near all of that. The fines are only $2.7 billion which is not in a massively different tier than the $1.1 billion Toyota paid over gas pedals, especially considering what VAG did was intentional rather than negligent and how strict the environmental legislation is. They've committed another $2 billion to development of clean air technology but that's mostly a show of good faith rather than a penalty.

Last time I checked, be it intentional or due to negligence, manslaughter is also breaking the law. In fact, manslaughter is one step below a murder charge. Why GM still got off easier than VAG over something that killed people and IMO is more egregious and heinous (and the fact that GM knew of this for 10 years and did nothing until the lawsuits piled up and the NHTSA and NTSB got involved) makes me wonder what the lawmaker's priorities are aside from milking tax dollars from wherever they can, be it from political donations, or fines and lawsuits.

Breaking environmental laws IMO doesn't even rate nearly as high as GM pulling something nearly as bad as Ford pulled with the Pinto over 40 years ago. Having a flawed design is one thing, but waiting 10 years to do anything about it is quite another. That's about as bad as Ford dropping the fuel cell bladder and original design for the fuel filler neck to save money, and that the fuel filler neck mods would've added only $15 to the price of the car. Basically, it sounded like GM pulled a Ford and calculated that lawsuit settlements would save them money compared to fixing the problem.

Granted, I can see VAG doing the same cost analysis, that paying off lawsuits and fees would save them money over actually fixing the cars, or making sure they complied with the letter and spirit of the law in the first place.

But I'd still argue that the US Government should go after heavy industry (and large diesel and gasoline engined pick up trucks and heavy vehicles) if they really want to make a dent in cleaning up the environment. Mercury and cyanide is still used to process gold and other precious metals, for example. And the EPA themselves aren't above causing their own problems:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_G...te_water_spill

[Rodger Davies]

So it turns out Murphy was right after all........

[Starfish Primer]

My favourite Audi is the 2014 R18, really beautiful but underpowered compared to the Toyota.

I don't see them back for a few years, this week the news were a 30.000 employee layoff for the 2020.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswag...obs-1479455462

[hondafan37]

I am joining loose ends of everything they mentioned here these days and I am hoping to see the RP7 on track:

*Acid 09 said: "Hindy's prediction that Audi will be back before Peugeot caused 20 seconds of very awkward silence on the WEC stream" The rumor of Peugeot returnm is 2018.

*Chernaudi Said: " I've also read a possible rumor (though it could also be a bad translation) that Audi Sport could finish building the 2017 car and maybe test it as a final farewell to the current LMP1 program" test it as a final farewell? or possible test to see if the car is competitive.

*Joest interested in a private LMP1 program.

*Bruno Famin (Peugeot) requesting for factory light LMP1 non-hybrids.

*The need for budget reduction by the Dieselgate.

*The rumored Audi pass from Diesel to Gasoline (even the rumor that the gasoline engine is already developed too)


Perhaps Audi thinks that with a non-hybrid LMP1 it could be competitive with around 20 or 25% of the budget, even with more downforce for the aerodynamic advantages of private 2017 rules and 48 kg less the car could be a winner in the circuits with a lot of curves( like the Porsche RS Spyder did in ALMS)
The downside is that the team must be private, but the engine may be of factory, then you can paint an immense inscription that says "Power by AUDI"
This also allows to keep the team active and see what happens towards 2018 with the other rumor that is the exit of Posche.
I would like to see a "Joest RP7 Audi"

[Flo aus N]

Honestly ? It's a dream

VW is cuting down ~23.000 jobs in Germany and i would be wondered if Audi is not going the same route...

The sad thing is: All the DNA, the hole team has, would be needed in the hole group, which is intoxicated with misstrust and without passion and fairness. This team could have beend a role model for a hole group and company. But the political discussions and decisions in the board of directors at the VW Group are stronger. Given the current situation in the company, we will have to wait a very long time to see them back in endurance racing and Le Mans.

[Acid09]

Like I said, I think Hindy underestimates the trouble VAG is in and the amount of money they have to save in the next years and I would interpret GG's lack of a response as him not agreeing with that uber-optimistic prediction at all.

VW is letting more than 20k workers go in Germany, that will create public pressure on the company, not the kind of atmosphere anyone will sign off on new racing programmes on. Remember Peugeot had to pull the plug when they had to lay off people big time..cutting jobs and going racing in an expensive way does not mix.

Porsche is a bit of a separate case because they're not involved in Dieselgate (aside from a fraction of engines they did not build themselves) and that arm of the company is still massively profitable. Plus, VW CEO Müller is an ex Porsche guy so he will probably try hard to protect their privileges as long as possible.

Also, VAG isn't very profitable anymore. Audi, who has made lots of profits for VAG, isn't profitable anymore, hence the high-level bloodshed at Audi in recent months, that wasn't just all because of Dieselgate.

VAG is in massive, massive trouble...some insiders describe it as "on the brink of collapse". They still sell a lot of cars but the profitability is very low, partly because their workforce in Germany is very expensive due to strong unions.

No one knows what Peugeot will do but the only way that Hindy's "Audi will be back before Peugeot" prediction will come true is if Peugeot won't join in the next 5 years. Because Audi surely won't, not in the state VAG is in.

[chernaudi]

Problem is, in case you missed carbsmith's post, the actual fines, fees, and lawsuit settlement is 2.7 billiion USD. Most of the rest is a worse case scenario for buy backs, which most of the cars can be fixed for much less money than having to buy back the cars. Clearly at this stage, VAG won't be buying back all the cars, no where near it, since 80% of them can be easily fixed with a software upgrade.

The problem is the 20% of cars that are a model year or two too old for the fix to be effective, and VAG themselves have decided that it would be cheaper in that case to offer a buy back rather than repair them.

I still think that Hindy knows a lot more than any of us do. Also consider the facebook postings he made about Audi. I believe that dieselgate is a very small faction of why Audi Sport pulled the plug on the WEC. The reasons are a lot more politically (motorsport politics) and ROI motivated than being cautious about how bad the financial cost of dieselgate could be.

And we also have to remember that the EU painted themselves into a corner as far as going after VAG though the EU's own actions, such as VAG's cheat devices essentially being legal when they were used (AKA, allowed but not permitted), and they screwed themselves (the EU) with their own biased, unreliable testing standards.

[chernaudi]

Also, Audi didn't run in the afternoon young driver test due to a hybrid system on the #7. What prevented Audi from using the #8 as a back up car?

[Sodemo]

So what would be the suggestions for cost cutting in LMP1?

[GT6]

i would agree with most people here, that VAG will need time to get out of the hole they have dug for themselves but eventually they will and then Audi will return but it will take time and the WEC must look elsewhere for new manufacturers.

[Starfish Primer]

Major of London claiming the congestion tax not paid by VW owners because of the cheating device.

Will the vag group exist as we know it in 2025?

[GT6]

Have heard many times over the last few years that the porsche brand will be separated off again but the current situation might cause the group to decide the money it raises by doing that could save the rest of the group.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by GT6

Have heard many times over the last few years that the porsche brand will be separated off again but the current situation might cause the group to decide the money it raises by doing that could save the rest of the group.

But the rest of the group still makes profit. It doesn't need saved. They're having to pay massive fines, but it isn't like suddenly nobody buys Audis and VWs. The drop in the oil barrel price has had a bigger effort on Audi sales than dieselgate did.

When dieselgate hit, the biggest question in the UK wasn't "How do I return my VW?" but rather "...can I get some compensation? I fancy a payout".

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by Starfish Primer

Major of London claiming the congestion tax not paid by VW owners because of the cheating device.

Will the vag group exist as we know it in 2025?

And during most of that time (and as of now, officially since it hasn't been set in stone) London and the rest of the UK was part of the EU, the same EU that, though not expressly permitting it, allowed for VAG to use those cheating devices. The EU messed up on that one by leaving that loophole open.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

So what would be the suggestions for cost cutting in LMP1?

Customer chassis and manufacturer-supplied power units, sold at a fixed price. Think late-90s Champcar.

[carbsmith]

What we've heard time and again is that VAG won't run 2 brands with the same technology, and post-dieselgate Audi diesels are dead in motorsport. So they won't be back until hydrogen or whatever.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Also, VAG isn't very profitable anymore. Audi, who has made lots of profits for VAG, isn't profitable anymore, hence the high-level bloodshed at Audi in recent months, that wasn't just all because of Dieselgate.

It isn't correct to say Audi is not profitable. 2016 first 6 months profit (after tax and expenses) was €1.365bn. It is a profit drop of 30%, however lets not pretend that a profit drop is the same as a loss. Audi is still in the black by a ridiculously massive number. They have €1.3bn more than they did at the start of the year.

That isn't the same as Peugeot, who were in real trouble and in the red.

[MoMedic9019]

The reason that Hindy said what he did is that...

Peugeot is not going to return in the current technological environment. Not with the costs, not with the demands. The rules have been frozen, or at least allegedly frozen per S365 until 2019.

This isn't because the ACO has acquiesced to a new manu's demands. It's because they are trying to entire others with "stability" to show up. P1 is nearly dead if they dont get it turned around.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by MoMedic9019

The reason that Hindy said what he did is that...

Peugeot is not going to return in the current technological environment. Not with the costs, not with the demands. The rules have been frozen, or at least allegedly frozen per S365 until 2019.

This is how I read it too. Not that Audi will return sooner, rather than Peugeot will take longer to return than expected.

[TF110]

I think that's bogus. Hindy just said that because he was in that moment. Graham had nothing to say, and sometimes, silence speaks louder. I think this is the case rather than Peugeot aren't interested. Because they are, and the WEC/ACO confirmed it. Not only did they confirm the discussions with Peugeot are ongoing, but for an entry with a hybrid, not without.

[chernaudi]

Still though, Peugeot are probably asking for tons of concessions to reduce cost well beyond rule stability until 2020. We have to remember the 3.5MJ limit on hybrids in 2012/13 was because of Peugeot being stuck with running a F1 derived KERS system that at most could put out 3.5MJ at best.

Only way Peugeot gets back in "before Audi" (ie, before the 2020 rules take effect) is if the ACO either revert back to a 3.5MJ limit (not gonna happen, that genie has left the bottle and won't be comin' back anytime soon), or the ACO does as it seemed that they intended to do with the current rules (and as Audi Sport criticized them for not doing in 2014) and having different hybrid combinations being on a truly roughly equal paying field.

In short, throw the ERS incentive crap into the dumpster and the landfill. Which that's a helluva lot more doable than reverting back to a hard MJ cap below 8MJ max, or instituting a cost cap, which none of the teams, even TMG, are willing to fully commit to.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Still though, Peugeot are probably asking for tons of concessions to reduce cost well beyond rule stability until 2020. We have to remember the 3.5MJ limit on hybrids in 2012/13 was because of Peugeot being stuck with running a F1 derived KERS system that at most could put out 3.5MJ at best.

Only way Peugeot gets back in "before Audi" (ie, before the 2020 rules take effect) is if the ACO either revert back to a 3.5MJ limit (not gonna happen, that genie has left the bottle and won't be comin' back anytime soon), or the ACO does as it seemed that they intended to do with the current rules (and as Audi Sport criticized them for not doing in 2014) and having different hybrid combinations being on a truly roughly equal paying field.

In short, throw the ERS incentive crap into the dumpster and the landfill. Which that's a helluva lot more doable than reverting back to a hard MJ cap below 8MJ max, or instituting a cost cap, which none of the teams, even TMG, are willing to fully commit to.

That was over 5 years ago. Battery tech has improved a lot since then so I think they could do fine in that regard. It might not be easy to get 8mj from two kers braking systems, but 4mj or 6mj shouldn't be a tough ask if they can get a decent hybrid set up.

[GasperG]

There is no way a new contender will show up with flywheel KERS sistem. The point of MJ-classes is (or should be) a lower cost entry point for manufacturer, that doesn't wan't to spend a ton of money.