2010 Le Mans Intercontinental Cup

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by cmk

I cannot really understand that post. Rephrase?

OK...

The ALMS is the most important Le Mans race type series, and anything that comes to put an end on it has to stop, or else, we return to the IMSA GTP times... or something of our own, like we make with Nascar, or Indy, or.... whatever.

The fact is that you on that side of the Atlantic don't like to be just a part of something that isn't all yours.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

So... basically... or the ALMS it's the most important endurance championship in the world (almost bigger than Le Mans) or else... take your but out if my land?

LOL

No, that isn't the point. The interests and growth of the Genre as a whole should be looked at, not just a few influential loud parties (Audi and Peugeot). The ALMS, and LMS should be viewed as the base to build upon. The place where the entries for LM come from. You make these series attractive for manufacturers to enter and strengthen them, then you consider how to leverage that. It isn't take your butt out of my land, this has the capability to be one of the final straws that broke the ALMS camel's back. If your dead, you can't kick anyone off your land.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

OK...

The ALMS is the most important Le Mans race type series, and anything that comes to put an end on it has to stop, or else, we return to the IMSA GTP times... or something of our own, like we make with Nascar, or Indy, or.... whatever.

The fact is that you on that side of the Atlantic don't like to be just a part of something that isn't all yours.

What a load of crap!!




L.P.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

What a load of crap!!
L.P.

My point precisely!
I've heard the same bull years ago with the creation of the LMS!

Make the ALMS accessible for privateers and forgot that idea of having an all professional racing with a bunch of works teams on it. The problem is that with an international series, the manufactures will prefer to rave on it full season and not in the ALMS, probably may i underline.

And that is really getting to your nerves...

Here in Europe we had years of privateer racing only, and we have a lot of entrants year after year... And we are not a bit concerned with LMIC.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

My point precisely!
I've heard the same bull years ago with the creation of the LMS!

Perhaps from some quarters, most certainly not this one.

Make the ALMS accessible for privateers and forgot that idea of having an all professional racing with a bunch of works teams on it. The problem is that with an international series, the manufactures will prefer to rave on it full season and not in the ALMS, probably may i underline.

I agree with making the ALMS more accessible to privateers. Without the Professional teams, there is no ALMS. It's financial structure requires it. Of course it could fail, and a new structure and organization could take over...

And that is really getting to your nerves...

Here in Europe we had years of privateer racing only, and we have a lot of entrants year after year... And we are not a bit concerned with LMIC.

Congratulations, and I appreciate that it doesn't concern you what the health of true sportscar racing in North America is. North America and Europe are two different situations, and what is good for one, might not necessarily be good for the other. A balancing act is required. Astute observers would recognize this, and the need for strength on both sides.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Congratulations, and I appreciate that it doesn't concern you what the health of true sportscar racing in North America is. North America and Europe are two different situations, and what is good for one, might not necessarily be good for the other. A balancing act is required. Astute observers would recognize this, and the need for strength on both sides.

TBH, I don't see much balance.

I see ALMS fans, understandably, wanting North American manufactuer's/importers such as Acura, GM, BMW etc., plus European based manufactuer's like Audi and Peugeot, the best privateers, drivers, a large calender of high profile races, live TV coverage on both sides of the Atlantic etc.

Meanwhile over in Europe we have to settle for a quaint series know as the LMS, large grids, but lacking the quality, media profile, and pretty much everything that makes Le Mans the event it is.

Then there's Asia, which until this year wasn't even a factor, disgraceful when you consider the Le Mans heritage in that part of the world.

[Fogelhund]

I have no issues with having what Europe has, but the current business structure of the series makes that impossible. Perhaps the series will morph to the point that is possible, or perhaps a rebirth is required. I'm not particularly opposed to either.

[Mal]

I don't see this as the ACO alone taking the decision to set up the LMIC - I suspect this has been done at the request of the manufacturers involved

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Mal

I don't see this as the ACO alone taking the decision to set up the LMIC - I suspect this has been done at the request of the manufacturers involved

I would agree. The same manufacturers that continue to lobby to ensure Diesels are favoured. Ultimately, is either good for the sport?

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I would agree. The same manufacturers that continue to lobby to ensure Diesels are favoured. Ultimately, is either good for the sport?

Its a necessary evil if you want the manufacturers involved.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Mal

Its a necessary evil if you want the manufacturers involved.

It may be a necessary evil to keep those manufacturers involved. It ultimately seems to have had a part in losing Porsche and Acura. It is a barrier to non-diesel involvement.

TWK's website Last Turn Club has an interesting article just posted on this topic.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It may be a necessary evil to keep those manufacturers involved. It ultimately seems to have had a part in losing Porsche and Acura. It is a barrier to non-diesel involvement.

TWK's website Last Turn Club has an interesting article just posted on this topic.

Excellent and insightful article...

[Speed-King]

I am not sure if I agree with all the conclusions of that article:

1. Continue to utilize ACO rules as the base set for LMP chassis.

Not the worst idea on its own, but I think it's either this or conclusions (3) and (5)

2. Freeze chassis regulation changes for a period of four or five years, ignore the tinkering rules changes of the ACO that are costly.

Nothing wrong with that either, as long as there is a possibility for rules changes made necessary by glaring mistakes in the rulebook, e.g. cars going flying, etc.

3. Allow the cars to be faster. Drop weights back down to 675kg, and allow current P1 size tires. Increase restrictor sizes. The goal should be to field the fastest road racing cars in North America.

Not a bad idea on its own, but as I said above: Why use ACO-chassis then? If you go that way, an ACO LMP1 weighting in at 900kgs will not be competitive with the American cars. While it is a possible to run a customer chassis like the Lola and Zytek at vastly different weights, I don't think that's the case with manufacturer cars, which are designed with a certain target wirght in mind (remember the Peugeots being actually a bit overweight) and without the compromises necessary to ensure maximum adaptability for privateer chassis. Manufacturers would have to built bespoke cars for racing in North America and would not be able to compete there with their Le Mans cars.

4. Create engine rules for those above eight cylinders, and greater than 3.4 liters. Fans want V8’s, V10’s and 12’s to be making those glorious noises, and to be competitive.

Another potential can of worms. Either those bigger engines would necessitate the manufacturers building special engines to race in America or we have once again into look into balancing two classes of engines built to different rule sets. Remember the complaints about the GT1-Aston-engines in the Lolas? I supposse we'd see a lot more of that.

5. Create the “crashed tested tub” base. Basically anyone can build a car, based upon any existing tub that has been crash tested, without requiring homologation through the ACO. As long as the car passed inspection for safety and rules, it can be modified as you like, or changed from the original manufacturer, as you like.

The class of cars proposed in this article will run at speeds a good deal faster than the speeds achieved by the ACO's cars. So will ACO-certified chassis be safe enough for accidents at those higher speeds? I supposse there are some "reserves" in the ACO-crash-specs, but shouldn't the cars run under the hypothetical North American ruleset not have the same reserves?
Mandate your own crash testing specs and have the ACO or the manufacturers adept those if they have to; not the other way around.

6. Ensure that all engine capacities, fuels etc. have an equal chance of winning in principle.

Within reasonable limits, I agree.

If you want to separate yourself that far from the ACO's rules, go it all the way and create a completely new ruleset of your own. A ruleset like the one proposed in Mr. Farrel's article will eliminate any chance of a crossover from European teams, and for those fans who are especially drawn to the ALMS because its connection to Le Mans, this would be an issue.
Personally, I'd have no problem with that as I like diversity and fret at the thought of seeing the same cars race all over the world, but others probably think different.
Keeping an, however loose, connection to the ACO would only set this new class of cars back in terms of safety and parity of engine concepts and will most probably not bring any actual benefits.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by JAG

TBH, I don't see much balance.

I see ALMS fans, understandably, wanting North American manufactuer's/importers such as Acura, GM, BMW etc., plus European based manufactuer's like Audi and Peugeot, the best privateers, drivers, a large calender of high profile races, live TV coverage on both sides of the Atlantic etc.

Meanwhile over in Europe we have to settle for a quaint series know as the LMS, large grids, but lacking the quality, media profile, and pretty much everything that makes Le Mans the event it is.

Then there's Asia, which until this year wasn't even a factor, disgraceful when you consider the Le Mans heritage in that part of the world.

Thank You! Someone did understand!

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Congratulations, and I appreciate that it doesn't concern you what the health of true sportscar racing in North America is. North America and Europe are two different situations, and what is good for one, might not necessarily be good for the other. A balancing act is required. Astute observers would recognize this, and the need for strength on both sides.

It concerns me more the future of sportscar in Europe... i'm European, not American... and this topic is about a competition that is not American nor European, not even Asian: It's for and by all of us! and that surely doesn't concerns you (in general) on that side of the atlantic. If the competition was made by your rules, organized by your organizers (IMSA), everything was just fine.

Le Mans Intercontinent Cup is the balance needed. Big manufactures coming do America, Europe and Asia, and not being just in on side all the time, and once a year to Le Mans.

[LeMans.pt]

Fans want V8’s, V10’s and 12’s to be making those glorious noises, and to be competitive.


... and the european and asian manufactures wants to sell to their costumers precisely the oppose!

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

It concerns me more the future of sportscar in Europe... i'm European, not American... and this topic is about a competition that is not American nor European, not even Asian: It's for and by all of us! and that surely doesn't concerns you (in general) on that side of the atlantic. If the competition was made by your rules, organized by your organizers (IMSA), everything was just fine.

Le Mans Intercontinent Cup is the balance needed. Big manufactures coming do America, Europe and Asia, and not being just in on side all the time, and once a year to Le Mans.

Well, maybe you will get your wish! The ALMS will die and you can have it all to your European self! And with a large market gone, then you will see just how many of those Japanese and European mfgs truly want to spend money on Sportscar Prototype racing. Or is that to hard to understand? Such utter dross!!!!!!






L.P.

[JHamilton]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It may be a necessary evil to keep those manufacturers involved. It ultimately seems to have had a part in losing Porsche and Acura. It is a barrier to non-diesel involvement.

TWK's website Last Turn Club has an interesting article just posted on this topic.

That article embodies exactly how I feel about the state of sportcar racing.

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Well, maybe you will get your wish! The ALMS will die and you can have it all to your European self! And with a large market gone, then you will see just how many of those Japanese and European mfgs truly want to spend money on Sportscar Prototype racing. Or is that to hard to understand? Such utter dross!!!!!!

If i get what i wish, we will have a strong Le Mans World Series, with the best circuits of north-america, europe and asia, and, why not, australia, africa and south-america. Otherwise, i don't know what you are talking about!

My European self? Where did you saw on my comments that i want the best pilots and the best teams in the Le Mans Series? Speak for yourself...
Do you know the meaning or the concept of 'International' or 'Intercontinental'? On my dictionary it's not Europe... maybe over there in states you have different English dictionaries...

America is a large market, but it's not THE market! What market will be lost if the LMIC will race in America? You over there just watch races organized by yourself? If the ALMS dies, it's your fault, or you really think that you can have an series just with manufacture entries? Look to what happen to F1! Not even they could do it... Make way for the privateers. We have relied on them and the LMS is still standing up!

"Such utter dross?"

It´s not the first time you use this kind of language with me, but one thing that my 'Europeen self' is proud of, is respecting other people ideas even when i don't agree.

[HORNDAWG]

I suggest you go back in this thread and read your own posts!








L.P.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

If i get what i wish, we will have a strong Le Mans World Series, with the best circuits of north-america, europe and asia, and, why not, australia, africa and south-america. Otherwise, i don't know what you are talking about!

My European self? Where did you saw on my comments that i want the best pilots and the best teams in the Le Mans Series? Speak for yourself...
Do you know the meaning or the concept of 'International' or 'Intercontinental'? On my dictionary it's not Europe... maybe over there in states you have different English dictionaries...

America is a large market, but it's not THE market! What market will be lost if the LMIC will race in America? You over there just watch races organized by yourself? If the ALMS dies, it's your fault, or you really think that you can have an series just with manufacture entries? Look to what happen to F1! Not even they could do it... Make way for the privateers. We have relied on them and the LMS is still standing up!

A few questions for you:

If you "get what you wish" with races on multiple continents, exactly how many of those "privateers" will be able to afford to go to all points of the globe to participate?

Didn't FIA-GT, then later the LMS try to do a race in Brazil? Boy, the LMS sure had BIG numbers of privateers participate in that, didn't it?

Even with Petit Le Mans being an "Automatic Bid' if you win your class, how many of the European privateers even bother to make that trip? Not enough to amount to a glob of spit...that's how many show up...

Yet you still want to see this stupid world championship that will be enormously expensive for teams, thus it will lack any meaningful participation because they can't afford the trips, and will undercut the other Series in other parts of the world that help to support the ACO's ultimate goal to grow sportscar racing.

Back when the old FIA sportscar series existed and had few competitors, I urged the ACO to form the LMS under its banner, and I think it was a great move...

I just can't understand why the ACO chooses to do this NOW, when it should be done when the sport is strong enough to sustain it as opposed to doing it in the midst of a deep worldwide recession...

I will close with this...

The LMS season events (keep Le Mans out of this...separate, showcase event) have many more cars participating, but do not draw even remotely close to as many fans in attendance at the events as North American sportscar races attract to race weekends....not even close.

In fact, Sebring and Petit both draw over 100,000 fans each (Sebring closer to 200,000), Mid-Ohio comes close to 90,000-100,000, Mosport draws 75,000+, and the list goes on and on...

Why screw over an ACO-affiliated series that grows your fanbase for sportscar racing and for Le Mans by undercutting it?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

Fans want V8’s, V10’s and 12’s to be making those glorious noises, and to be competitive.


... and the european and asian manufactures wants to sell to their costumers precisely the oppose!

Do they?

Audi doesn't make a V10 R8?
Toyota doesn't make a V10 Lexus LS-F?
BMW and Mercedes don't sell cars with V12's?
Nissan doesn't sell V8's?

How many more examples do you want?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

A few questions for you:

If you "get what you wish" with races on multiple continents, exactly how many of those "privateers" will be able to afford to go to all points of the globe to participate?

Didn't FIA-GT, then later the LMS try to do a race in Brazil? Boy, the LMS sure had BIG numbers of privateers participate in that, didn't it?

Even with Petit Le Mans being an "Automatic Bid' if you win your class, how many of the European privateers even bother to make that trip? Not enough to amount to a glob of spit...that's how many show up...

Yet you still want to see this stupid world championship that will be enormously expensive for teams, thus it will lack any meaningful participation because they can't afford the trips, and will undercut the other Series in other parts of the world that help to support the ACO's ultimate goal to grow sportscar racing.

Back when the old FIA sportscar series existed and had few competitors, I urged the ACO to form the LMS under its banner, and I think it was a great move...

I just can't understand why the ACO chooses to do this NOW, when it should be done when the sport is strong enough to sustain it as opposed to doing it in the midst of a deep worldwide recession...

It makes sense in the continents with their own racing series (ALMS, LMS AsLMS). About the rest, i should have said ?let me dream? and not 'why not'. The LMIC is for the manufactures and top privateer teams, not for all, LMP1 class only, and i don't believe that this can work in other ways, like having all the 4 classes.

Brazil was bad, was just stupid, but, in the old WSC days, the final round had few entrants also, and, they had said that the transport would be paid, but only part of it. A Team Manager from a LMS team told me that it wasn't enough to transport an full dismantle LMP. Talking on WSC, the championship was almost for the top manufactures also, and they attend to the races they wanted to, here, there or in Asia, and things worked fine until FIA put an end on it.

I´m not sure that LMIC is going to be a success, or a failure... probably, not even one or the other. But what i am sure, is that this competition was demanded by the manufacturers, and its not some silly kamikaze ideia from ACO. Audi was the first to say present on the new series, an Peugeot will follow for sure. An month ago, Quesnel in an interview on an french sport magazine said that it was necessary to put on an World Championship for manufacturers.

Logistics will be a great problem i agree. In F1, Everything, or almost, is paid by the Championship sponsors, and i doubt that at least in an near future, that will happen in LMIC. Undercut what? Peugeot and Audi are doing only Sebring and Petit Le Mans, what will be different? There ain't Sebring this year but it will be in 2011. And on LMS? Peugeot and Audi are gone (Peugeot went for Spa), and now they can be both in Silverstone (Audi is for sure), an in the future they could be on 2 races. That is much more than we have now, and you loose nothing you didn´t already lost.

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I will close with this...

The LMS season events (keep Le Mans out of this...separate, showcase event) have many more cars participating, but do not draw even remotely close to as many fans in attendance at the events as North American sportscar races attract to race weekends....not even close.

In fact, Sebring and Petit both draw over 100,000 fans each (Sebring closer to 200,000), Mid-Ohio comes close to 90,000-100,000, Mosport draws 75,000+, and the list goes on and on...

Why screw over an ACO-affiliated series that grows your fanbase for sportscar racing and for Le Mans by undercutting it?

One of the things i admire on the american motorsports fans (please tell me if i'm wrong), is that you are genuine motorpsort fans. Of course you have your preferences, and some just go to see some kinds of motorsport, and, here in europe is the oposit. There ain't motorsport fans.. there are endurance fans, a huge amount of F1 fans, others are GT fans, WRC fans... motorsport fans? that attend to severeal types of racing? To few...

Then, we have the problem of the lack of works teams, and close races. I can see an seperate LMP2 field for privateer teams, but i can´t understand the advantage of diesel on LMP1.

Now i'll make you two questions that i hope you respond:

Could ALMS (and LMS also) survive only with LMP2 (with no works teams), GT1 and GT2 fields, leaving the top LMP1 for those who can go acroos the world?

If NASCAR and Indy don't have works teams, and they are going well, why can't ALMS go the same way?

[LeMans.pt]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Audi doesn't make a V10 R8?
Toyota doesn't make a V10 Lexus LS-F?
BMW and Mercedes don't sell cars with V12's?
Nissan doesn't sell V8's?

Yes they do, and how many of those are not top sport cars? Do you thinks that manufacturers are on motorsport to sell sport cars? I honestly don't, except the one who only built sport cars. Jonh Doe can't afford it... and those are their main market.

Yesterday on Radiolemans, Ullrich was questioned about the ACO betting on smaller blocks, and he told that it suits the manufacturers because that's way they are going.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Do they? (...)
How many more examples do you want?

Now i can´t post without this kind of aggressiveness?
OK...

[Speed-King]

Could ALMS (and LMS also) survive only with LMP2 (with no works teams)

It could, but it would no longer be ALMS as we know it, but something a lot closer to what IMSA was in the 1990s.
I think the 2011 LMP2 rules are a great chance for both regional series: With the change to production based engines, there will be manufacturer names without necessarily involving manufacturer efforts and the problems they bring for privateer teams (what I don't like is the 4l limit, just use the same restrictors as in GT2 and be done with it). With a little luck, manufacturers might even set up contingency programms for the teams that compete with their engines and thus indirectly support the teams that carry their banner.