2010 Le Mans Intercontinental Cup

[Hugewally]

I wish the ACO would ban factory teams and force the factories to sell their cars to privateers.

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

I wish the ACO would ban factory teams and force the factories to sell their cars to privateers.

Ditto...

[cmk]

Originally Posted by LeMans.pt

It makes sense in the continents with their own racing series (ALMS, LMS AsLMS). About the rest, i should have said ?let me dream? and not 'why not'. The LMIC is for the manufactures and top privateer teams, not for all, LMP1 class only, and i don't believe that this can work in other ways, like having all the 4 classes.

Brazil was bad, was just stupid, but, in the old WSC days, the final round had few entrants also, and, they had said that the transport would be paid, but only part of it. A Team Manager from a LMS team told me that it wasn't enough to transport an full dismantle LMP. Talking on WSC, the championship was almost for the top manufactures also, and they attend to the races they wanted to, here, there or in Asia, and things worked fine until FIA put an end on it.

I´m not sure that LMIC is going to be a success, or a failure... probably, not even one or the other. But what i am sure, is that this competition was demanded by the manufacturers, and its not some silly kamikaze ideia from ACO. Audi was the first to say present on the new series, an Peugeot will follow for sure. An month ago, Quesnel in an interview on an french sport magazine said that it was necessary to put on an World Championship for manufacturers.

Logistics will be a great problem i agree. In F1, Everything, or almost, is paid by the Championship sponsors, and i doubt that at least in an near future, that will happen in LMIC. Undercut what? Peugeot and Audi are doing only Sebring and Petit Le Mans, what will be different? There ain't Sebring this year but it will be in 2011. And on LMS? Peugeot and Audi are gone (Peugeot went for Spa), and now they can be both in Silverstone (Audi is for sure), an in the future they could be on 2 races. That is much more than we have now, and you loose nothing you didn´t already lost.




One of the things i admire on the american motorsports fans (please tell me if i'm wrong), is that you are genuine motorpsort fans. Of course you have your preferences, and some just go to see some kinds of motorsport, and, here in europe is the oposit. There ain't motorsport fans.. there are endurance fans, a huge amount of F1 fans, others are GT fans, WRC fans... motorsport fans? that attend to severeal types of racing? To few...

Then, we have the problem of the lack of works teams, and close races. I can see an seperate LMP2 field for privateer teams, but i can´t understand the advantage of diesel on LMP1.

Now i'll make you two questions that i hope you respond:

Could ALMS (and LMS also) survive only with LMP2 (with no works teams), GT1 and GT2 fields, leaving the top LMP1 for those who can go acroos the world?

If NASCAR and Indy don't have works teams, and they are going well, why can't ALMS go the same way?

Dreams are all well and good, but they are just that. Dreams. You can't plan, market and execute a series based on dreams. Track owners, promoters, teams, drivers, sponsors, media - none of these balance their books with wishes and hopes. The fundamental issue here, the one that you don't seem to be grasping, is that for the LMIC (and, in fact, the 24 hours itself) to be successful, competitors have to come from somewhere, and the existence and strength of regional series running to (relatively) the same rules provides a) the majority of the competitor base for the 24 hours and b) the race events which the LMIC is using as its meat for its 'series across series'.

Therefore, just as much as manufacturer support is required for the LMIC to be successful, strong series fielding the LMIC events themselves are required, and that strength needs to come from season-long entrant stability, volume and quality, not just drop-in manufacturer prototypes.

For that reason, if they insisted on pressing ahead with the LMIC in this economic climate (and I wish they had not), the ACO should have mandated full-season participation in one of the *LMS series in order for the entrant to be eligible for the LMIC. This would have enforced strong manufacturer presence in the series themselves, which tends to come hand in hand with sponsorship support for the series through advertising budgets which help pay for the cost of events and media coverage. Otherwise, the manufacturers are just taking from the series and not really giving back. That, with the current state of the ALMS, could be a death knell.

It's not about us being provincial, not wanting to be joiners, insisting on our own thing. A series based on ACO rules was a North American invention in the first place, and the LMS and AsLMS have only followed on! What it is about is not just the ramifications of the demise of the ALMS in a bubble, but its effects on both 24 hours entrants (some very very strong teams have come from the ALMS to La Sarthe in the last 10 years ) and on the very existence of the LMIC. If the ALMS goes, there is not much likelihood of ACO-rules racing at Sebring or PLM. What of your World Championship then?

[Speed-King]

If the ALMS goes, there is not much likelihood of ACO-rules racing at Sebring or PLM. What of your World Championship then?

Always depends on what would replace ALMS. Let's say it's replaced by an LMP2 (2011) + GT2/3 series. The World Championship teams could run with that series even if it was not run according to full LM-specs.

Kind of like in the late 70s when the Group 5 cars would run with Group 2 and 4 in Europe and with IMSA or Trans-Am cars in the overseas races. The rule set of the "supporting cast" doesn't really matter as long as speed differences aren't exceding certain limits.

Heck, I could imagine Sebring being run as an open race with LMIC as the top category and run-what-you-brung for the rest of the field, i.e. classes for P2s, FLM, DPs, IMSA Lites, GT1, GT2, GT3, GAGT, SWC and Trans-Am. Chances are that we'd finally see an entry list with over 40 cars once again...

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Always depends on what would replace ALMS. Let's say it's replaced by an LMP2 (2011) + GT2/3 series. The World Championship teams could run with that series even if it was not run according to full LM-specs.

Kind of like in the late 70s when the Group 5 cars would run with Group 2 and 4 in Europe and with IMSA or Trans-Am cars in the overseas races. The rule set of the "supporting cast" doesn't really matter as long as speed differences aren't exceding certain limits.

Heck, I could imagine Sebring being run as an open race with LMIC as the top category and run-what-you-brung for the rest of the field, i.e. classes for P2s, FLM, DPs, IMSA Lites, GT1, GT2, GT3, GAGT, SWC and Trans-Am. Chances are that we'd finally see an entry list with over 40 cars once again...

I suspect that if the ALMS fails, the current participants would end up in GARRA and not some ACO aligned spin off. If that happens there will not be a shared race with FIA/ACO cars, IMO.




L.P.

[Speed-King]

Even if so, what I wrote about Sebring becoming an open race would still be possible. As long as the LMIC came there, GA wouldn't make it an official round because they don't want the DPs to play second fiddle, but I am pretty sure some teams would enter if they were allowed to, same for their GT-teams and possible some SWC and T/A teams. Running in front of a 150k+ crowd will always draw teams, especially if you set the bar for participation a bit lower than it is right now.

Open Sebring to all cars not slower than a Cup-Porsche and the big grids will return...

Sebring could be run as an LMIC round without ALMS, I am however not so sure about PLM.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Even if so, what I wrote about Sebring becoming an open race would still be possible. As long as the LMIC came there, GA wouldn't make it an official round because they don't want the DPs to play second fiddle, but I am pretty sure some teams would enter if they were allowed to, same for their GT-teams and possible some SWC and T/A teams. Running in front of a 150k+ crowd will always draw teams, especially if you set the bar for participation a bit lower than it is right now.

Open Sebring to all cars not slower than a Cup-Porsche and the big grids will return...

Sebring could be run as an LMIC round without ALMS, I am however not so sure about PLM.

And if this ever came to pass, with the ACO and Patrick Peter bringing around the demise of the ALMS with the LMIC. Panoz holds the rights to Sebring, do you think that there would be an ACO race there? I am not so sure of it!!



L.P.

[Speed-King]

And if this ever came to pass, with the ACO and Patrick Peter bringing around the demise of the ALMS with the LMIC. Panoz holds the rights to Sebring, do you think that there would be an ACO race there? I am not so sure of it!!

If the alternative was a GARRA race??

And then, I wonder if Panoz wouldn't simply sell the rights for Sebring in disgust if the ALMS failed....

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

I have no issues with having what Europe has, but the current business structure of the series makes that impossible. Perhaps the series will morph to the point that is possible, or perhaps a rebirth is required. I'm not particularly opposed to either.

IMO the LMS needs to adopt the professionalism and marketing know how each ALMS race appears to have, which I hope will happen at those rounds that are part of the LMIC.

For the ALMS's part, I believe they need fewer events and longer race distances. There would still be a place for a couple of sprint races too.

I believe compromise is needed on both sides, what was dished up this year simply wasn't good enough, while it looks little better for 2010.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It may be a necessary evil to keep those manufacturers involved. It ultimately seems to have had a part in losing Porsche and Acura. It is a barrier to non-diesel involvement.

TWK's website Last Turn Club has an interesting article just posted on this topic.

I can't subscribe to that.

1/ At one stage Penske Porsche were close to total dominance and were competitive in every race they participated in, even at the likes of Road America.

2/ Aston Martin have lobbied the ACO for performance breaks on their production petrol engine, they should be competitive on the power front in 2010. I can't see Porsche or Acura being any less influential should they commit to a Le Mans program.

3/ LMP1 engine regulations change in 2011, if rumours are to be believed the rule book was written for Porsche's benefit.

4/ Big capacity engines are a thing of the past, within a decade the vast majority of production engines will be small(er) capacity turbo's and hybrids. LMP1 should be setting trends not harking back to the 70's and 80's.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I will close with this...

The LMS season events (keep Le Mans out of this...separate, showcase event) have many more cars participating, but do not draw even remotely close to as many fans in attendance at the events as North American sportscar races attract to race weekends....not even close.

In fact, Sebring and Petit both draw over 100,000 fans each (Sebring closer to 200,000), Mid-Ohio comes close to 90,000-100,000, Mosport draws 75,000+, and the list goes on and on...

Why screw over an ACO-affiliated series that grows your fanbase for sportscar racing and for Le Mans by undercutting it?

Which begs the question why aren't manufactuer's competing in LMP1/2, particularly Audi and Porsche with arguably the two quickest prototypes on the planet.

Penske Porsche left when they were on top, so it couldn't have been a performance issue, more likely the inability to find a new sponsor to replace DHL.

Then you have Audi, they've built a new diesel R15, sell huge numbers of road cars in North America, and have a great ALMS history, yet 2010 will be year two without a full season entry.

Clearly Audi and co. would either like to participate season long in the ALMS, but can no longer justify that size of budget, or they see greater marketing benefits from half a dozen big LMIC events across three continents, either way it's a problem for the ALMS and suggests a new approach is needed.

[Hugewally]

Any manufacturer could find the budget to run if they wanted to as all motorsports is to them is marketing and just how much do those advertising campaigns cost them?

[Purist]

JAG, I'm afraid some of your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

Penske was NOT on top when he left. He was "on top" in the 2007 season, but NOT in 2008. And the performance of the P2s was going to be choked down even more in 2009. Penske went where there was a, seemingly, decidedly better chance of winning overall. So YES, it absolutely WAS a performance issue. Do you honestly think Penske couldn't have found a sponsor if he had really wanted one to continue in the ALMS? Of course he could have; he CHOSE NOT to find one at that point in time, pure and simple.

I don't care if smaller engines are supposed to be the future of production cars by and large, or that that is where the next set of LMP regs is supposed to be going. What I KNOW, is that EVERY TIME sports prototype engines have been choked down, it has resulted in a "dark age" for sportscars. Something, even at LM, dimmed (for 1958-63 or so). The second iteration of the 3-litre prototypes push saw what has arguably been the worst slump for international sportscar racing ever (1972-81). We saw the smallest LM entry ever after the mandatory implementation of the 3.5-litre formula (1992-97).

The perception is that those small engines belong in touring cars. And it's clear that the perception is that limiting LMPs to just GT engines is NOT acceptable either. Those perceptions are NOT going to be easily changed, and if you don't give the people what they want in their sport, your sport WILL collapse.

I'll be brutally honest, the day that the automobile fails to curdle the blood, and fails to inspire, is the beginning of its death as a force in our culture, and of its place of importance in our world. And I'm sorry to say, but "silent" electric motors, and combustion engines that sound like glorified hair dryers, are uninspiring, unintimidating, and don't "move' people.

I can promise you, there are A LOT of young people (under 25) today who still believe that, "There is no substitute for cubic inches." Now, they might accept having to get an econo-box for a time, because it's what they can afford, and what they can afford to fuel up and insure, but they WILL DEMAND MORE from the motorsports they CHOOSE to watch. If LM racing fails to deliver "more' in their eyes, hearts, and minds, they WILL go elsewhere to get their fix. The fact that NASCAR exists in its current form PROVES this. The growth of drifting PROVES there is real a demand for the "wasteful" revving of big, loud, powerful engines, and for the "unnecessary" burning of rubber tires for the stimulation such activities bring. There are still many millions who demand their rumbling V8s and the like in terms of inefficient, obsolescent engines, and they will NOT be satisfied by motorsport that offers them anything less, period.

[Purist]

Specfically, it's funny how these rule changes seem to come as things have actually reached a fever-pitch on the track. The 3-litre mandate brought an end to many of the great roadster of the 1950s, and the associated efforts of their respective manufacturers. The 3-litre formula being cemented in 1972 put and end to the great 5-litre beasts. Finally, the 3.5-litre rules put an end to an age that saw Toyota, Nissan, Mazda, Mercedes, Jaguar, and Porsche all on track in the top category.

LMP2 should have been left alone from the get-go. And once the diesel potential was seen, they should have been reigned in swiftly and significantly. I don't know that the Astons will be competitive with the breaks being given. And even though they get help with having a petrol engine, they are hurt by running a coupe. Also, the Lola-Aston aero is VERY optimized for lower drag to give them a chance at LM. And the biggest problem any petrol runner WILL face is that, even if the hp was equalized (which I'm not sure that it has yet been), the diesels still have OVERWHELMING torque.

As for Acura, that LMP1 stood NO CHANCE at LM. It didn't even stand a chance against the diesels at Sebring or Road Atlanta (in the dry). And Jon Field's straight-line performance showed exactly how badly the Acuras would have been blown away by the diesels at Road America and Mosport.

LMP2s are NOT competitive at Le Mans, and would not be so even if they were taken back to the original specs, because they are simply too down on outright power to keep up on the straights at La Sarthe. As for Penske winning at Road America and Mosport in 2007, his team got lucky in both cases.

There needs to be rules stability, but those base rules MUST be reasonably open, and I cannot say that I'm particularly impressed, happy, or satisfied with the apparent direction of LMP1. We shall see what comes of it, but I'm not holding my breathe expecting to be blown away.

[Purist]

Sorry to drag on, but JAG, what races would you drop from the ALMS then? What race lengths would you go to with the remainder? How would reducing the series' footprint AND its presence throughout the season on this continent, possibly help?

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

I wish the ACO would ban factory teams and force the factories to sell their cars to privateers.

No ..... I wish that the ACO would stipulate that a factory has to make available 2 customer chassis at a reasonable cost . Either two customer teams with a single chassis each or one team running two chassis .

To ban the factories would be bad , and possibily send them off to another series .

[fieldodreams79]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

I wish the ACO would ban factory teams and force the factories to sell their cars to privateers.

i somewhat feel the same way, but hasn't this been the David/Goliath Privateers/Factories scenario for many years. i would like to see something done with the rules to make privateers more accessible and competitive in the sport without compromising the technological innovations that make it so intriguing. i guess this is where the rub is?

[Hugewally]

Even with the same cars privateers are in the same league as factory teams.

The manufacturers don't need to run teams to get the end result they want, which is race winning headlines. They just need a car made by them to win.

[JAG]

Listening to Dr Wolfgang Ullrich on RLM's Midweek Motorsport show he stated Audi have been pushing for a worldwide series since 2000, that tell's you all you need to know.

He went on to say downsized engines are the route Audi are taking with their roadcars, so he is happy with the 2011 engine regulations.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by JAG

Listening to Dr Wolfgang Ullrich on RLM's Midweek Motorsport show he stated Audi have been pushing for a worldwide series since 2000, that tell's you all you need to know.

He went on to say downsized engines are the route Audi are taking with their roadcars, so he is happy with the 2011 engine regulations.

Hardly! That single element is far from "all I need to know" on this subject.





L.P.

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by Hugewally

Even with the same cars privateers aren't in the same league as factory teams.

The manufacturers don't need to run teams to get the end result they want, which is race winning headlines. They just need a car made by them to win.

Fixed my statement from above...

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by JAG

Listening to Dr Wolfgang Ullrich on RLM's Midweek Motorsport show he stated Audi have been pushing for a worldwide series since 2000, that tell's you all you need to know.

I guess that also puts a new light on the creation of the ELMS and ALMS's forray into Europe in 2000 and 2001.

[NaBUru38]

Let's see if you agree with these statements:

The ACO's core product is the LM24. They can't fill its grid with works teams, they need private teams for that. The best way to attract private teams from all around the globe is to have strong series running with similar rules in all the continents, or to be realistic, in three continents: North America, Europe and Asia.

The best place for manufacturers to show innovation is sports car racing. The ACO wants works teams to develop technologies such as hybrid powertrains. The right class to do that is LMP1. Rules should be stable, so each project investment lasts a few years. However, changes must be done every time cars get dangerously fast (be it in straights or corners) or prohibitely expensive.

Manufacturers seem to want to get the best return out of their investment by doing a few races per continent, so let's invite them to. But let them race in the continental series as well.

Private teams who want to race sports prototypes should race at LMP2, by buying engines and either buying chassis too or building them on their own. LMP2s must be cheaper than LMP1s but also slower, or manufacturers would dislike being outperformed by low-budget teams.

No LMP2 world cups, just continental series as now. These can modify their rules to adapt to local tastes. For example, the IMSA could allow big engines to match LMP1 performances. North American LMP2 teams could easily rent ACO-compliant engines for the LM24 anyway.

[Purist]

The trouble is, the events without serious LMP1 presence then lose even more standing compared to the marquee races (making the continental series less viable on the whole); it's a fact of this mass media age we live in that the continental series MUST have the "premier class" at all events, or those events (if not the entire series as a whole) will NOT be taken seriously. It's just that simple.

Also, the local contingents will NOT appreciate being made second fiddle at their series' premier events. On top of this, for North America, the serious privateers at least want the illusion of being in competition for the outright win, and that means they will run LMP1s, unless LMP2s are seen as competitive in overall terms. I can promise you that if LMP2s are uncompetitive for the overall win, the Dysons, Penskes, Intersports, etc of American sportscar racing will NOT run LMP2s; they WILL run LMP1s, if they are in the ALMS at all.

[Hugewally]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

Private teams who want to race sports prototypes should race at LMP2...

Just the idea of telling people that if they're not a factory team then they don't even get a chance at an overall win is detrimental to the sport.