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Old 12 Jul 2010, 06:12 (Ref:2725236)   #1
HORNDAWG
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'10 LMS Round 3 • Portimão • July 16th - 17th

’10 LMS Round 3 • Portimão Algarve - Portugal

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Qualifying begins Saturday July 17th at 09:50 WEST (GMT +1)
 


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Old 12 Jul 2010, 06:42 (Ref:2725244)   #2
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tux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Eurosport will give us 30 mins of live coverage at 22:30 british time on Saturday night! Why do they bother?
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Old 13 Jul 2010, 15:10 (Ref:2726142)   #3
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ubrben has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Mansell on the poster, oh well...

With only 4 LMP1 and a lot of Formula Le Mans on the entry, people will have to stop ALMS bashing :-p

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Old 13 Jul 2010, 18:35 (Ref:2726231)   #4
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No BMW's?
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Old 13 Jul 2010, 18:54 (Ref:2726237)   #5
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Guess they want to save the cars for the 24 hours at Spa...
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Old 13 Jul 2010, 19:02 (Ref:2726240)   #6
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Eurosport will give us 30 mins of live coverage at 22:30 british time on Saturday night! Why do they bother?
Why they won't take a hint from the ALMS, Indy Car or perish the thought SRO and stream the races to its web site?

I don't even see why they bother either. For you guys in Europe its likely Europlayer will be available.

Considering how much they ask for entry feeds into the 24h race, I know MONEY is not an issue.
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Old 13 Jul 2010, 19:03 (Ref:2726241)   #7
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Guess they want to save the cars for the 24 hours at Spa...
Is the Spa 24 a GT2/GT3/GT4 race?

Somehow I thought it was going to be a GT3/GT4 race...
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 04:13 (Ref:2726385)   #8
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Endurance-Info reporting that ACO has given Petrol-powered LMP1s a 4% larger restrictor starting this weekend.. It could spice things up, especially at ILMC races later this year!

http://translate.google.com/translat...ml&sl=fr&tl=en
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 19:21 (Ref:2726722)   #9
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The ILMC races will be interesting but so to the 2011 P1 restrictors.

A 4% increase is more than just a tweak.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 21:04 (Ref:2726786)   #10
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Anyone think that the air restrictor increase is due to the LMP2 cars showing up the gasoline LMP1s at Spa as much as the diesel dominance?
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 21:06 (Ref:2726787)   #11
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Anyone think that the air restrictor increase is due to the LMP2 cars showing up the gasoline LMP1s at Spa as much as the diesel dominance?
Possible, and with a HPD in the field, if any tracks can throw up a surprise result i.e. a potential shock LMP2 win, it's the twisty ones at Portimao and the Hungaroring.
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 21:21 (Ref:2726793)   #12
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Guess they want to save the cars for the 24 hours at Spa...
I didn't think they were homologated to Ratels rules?
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 23:13 (Ref:2726845)   #13
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Possible, and with a HPD in the field, if any tracks can throw up a surprise result i.e. a potential shock LMP2 win, it's the twisty ones at Portimao and the Hungaroring.
They can't defeat strong engineering, sound tactics and FUEL ECONOMY something Drayson learned first hand this past weekend.

The Strakka car barring somebody from putting in it off course somehow, I don't see them being headed. 4% was put there to help The Lolas....
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Old 14 Jul 2010, 23:13 (Ref:2726846)   #14
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The ILMC races will be interesting but so to the 2011 P1 restrictors.

A 4% increase is more than just a tweak.
Those boys make me laugh (ACO) ..... 4% break after LeMans ..... bet it would have been better recieved last April .
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Old 15 Jul 2010, 05:30 (Ref:2726924)   #15
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Those boys make me laugh (ACO) ..... 4% break after LeMans ..... bet it would have been better recieved last April .

Huh? It's not like there was no adjustments made, what short memories some have! The ACO gave the petrol cars a total of 7.1% restrictor adjustment compared to the diesels and the diesels also got a 5.8% reduction in boost this year. Here






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Old 15 Jul 2010, 05:56 (Ref:2726927)   #16
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Huh? It's not like there was no adjustments made, what short memories some have! The ACO gave the petrol cars a total of 7.1% restrictor adjustment compared to the diesels and the diesels also got a 5.8% reduction in boost this year. Here

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And what a massive difference that made in terms of relative performance to this point this year!

Proof positive of the potential of a factory funded engine programme.
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Old 15 Jul 2010, 07:36 (Ref:2726962)   #17
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It's a tough situation. Obviously if you only have 4 LMP1 cars at Portimao and one is a diesel, you either do something or risk a race for second place only.

I firmly believe that the advantage in the regs is minimal now even before this adjustment. What we're simply seeing is the difference between factory and privateer efforts. I class Aston Martin as non-factory because it's a customer programme that needs to break even or run at a minimal loss, whereas Audi and Peugeot are marketing driven projects with massive budgets.

Lets not forget that Audi/Bentley dominated with a petrol car.

The worry is that if we get further petrol breaks, a decent full factory petrol programme comes in (Toyota?) and utterly dominates - could happen...

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Old 15 Jul 2010, 08:49 (Ref:2726996)   #18
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And what a massive difference that made in terms of relative performance to this point this year!

Proof positive of the potential of a factory funded engine programme.


Or factory funded chassis, aero, team and drivers programmes!!

Did not see many petrol cars quicker through the Porsche corners than the factory diesels either.
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Old 15 Jul 2010, 16:07 (Ref:2727175)   #19
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As for BMW...mind you that the race weekend at Spa starts early with the parade on Wednesday. So basically your cars have to be at Spa during the weekend prior to the race-weekend.

That is next weekend, which would leave the team with the problem of getting its cars back to Germany and preparing it for Spa in just a matter of days.

Taking into consideration that in France lorries are banned from using the roads from Saturday 7 a.m. to Sunday 10 p.m. in July and August.
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Old 15 Jul 2010, 16:26 (Ref:2727182)   #20
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Huh? It's not like there was no adjustments made, what short memories some have! The ACO gave the petrol cars a total of 7.1% restrictor adjustment compared to the diesels and the diesels also got a 5.8% reduction in boost this year. Here
Point Im tryin to make is that the petrol/diesel performance is still to great , Ive been waiting years to see this so called balanced formula come to fruitition ..... and will believe it when I see the results .

Why does it take so long to balance it out ?
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Old 15 Jul 2010, 16:30 (Ref:2727184)   #21
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And what a massive difference that made in terms of relative performance to this point this year
My point exactly .

If the Pugs hadnt have had their woes , and who could have guessed at what would have happened , the best petrol car would have been in 8th position , and not 4th .

So, Lane , no ..... the balance is not there . You may argue till you turn blue , but the fact is that there never has been a balance with respect to fuel type . for god sake , they dont even know how to balance a hybrid yet !!!
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Old 15 Jul 2010, 16:56 (Ref:2727197)   #22
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My point exactly .

If the Pugs hadnt have had their woes , and who could have guessed at what would have happened , the best petrol car would have been in 8th position , and not 4th .

So, Lane , no ..... the balance is not there . You may argue till you turn blue , but the fact is that there never has been a balance with respect to fuel type . for god sake , they dont even know how to balance a hybrid yet !!!
Firstly: I did not say that the balance had been achieved.
I did state that the ACO made a rather large stab at it, and gave reference, in response to your insinuation that nothing had been done towards that end!

Secondly: As has been pointed out by others, and I agree, there is not a Full On Werks Petrol program to be judged against the Full Werks Diesel programs. For a long time now (the last couple of years written in the rules) it has been known that P-1 was for Werks programs and P-2 for privateers, per the ACO.

As to the opinion that there is not a balance, that is rather subjective, as there is no comparison to judge it by!!!
And nobody knows how to balance a hybrid yet for the simple fact that one has not been run in anger with the rest of the field yet!

And you can argue till you are blue in the face, but, it is apples and oranges until a Full Werks Petrol program comes along!



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Old 15 Jul 2010, 20:23 (Ref:2727290)   #23
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Those boys make me laugh (ACO) ..... 4% break after LeMans ..... bet it would have been better recieved last April .
Yes and no.

I'm only basing this on watching the races but HPD (albeit in P2) have shown up what a poor job everyone else has been doing particualrly on the engine front.

In 2011 who would touch a P1 Judd or AER Mazda motor unless they improve significantly?

Zytek have been equally poor but their hybrid system is a potential plus point.

If you can't get your hands on a Peugeot, Audi or Aston Martin I'd only consider an ORECA Peugeot or Lola HPD for P1.

*Assuming HPD and Wirth don't have 2011 P1 chassis.

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Old 15 Jul 2010, 22:36 (Ref:2727330)   #24
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I'm only basing this on watching the races but HPD (albeit in P2) have shown up what a poor job everyone else has been doing particualrly on the engine front

Thats because the engine , gearbox , electrics , suspension are all mated together when you buy a HPD , same with an RS Spyder . I think it will alyway stay the same in that respect .

Its difficult to beat a manufacturer turn key effort .

I cant understand how Rebellion had such a crap time of Le Mans . Previously nothing wrong with the engine , or the chassis .

Possibily the auld Judd is showing its age ?

I still reckon a P2 HPD , for 2011 P1 , or an Oreca will be the car to beat with respect to the privateers .

not sure what AMR intend yet , but I bet it will be good !!!
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Old 15 Jul 2010, 22:50 (Ref:2727336)   #25
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Well, that proves the point, as well as the fact that you need factory support to run a factory built car-look at how much Kolles has struggled with their R10s, as well as the fact that Kolles hired pay drivers and gentleman drivers for his cars(though the phrase pay driver shouldn't be used so loosely-even Allan McNish and Tom Kristensen bring personal endorsement sponsors to Audi, and last year Sebastian Bourdais brought Red Bull money with him to Peugeot).

The private Audi R8 teams, namely Champion were de-facto factory teams, like de Ferran and Highcroft were with Acura last years(listed as privateer teams by IMSA, but basically factory teams in all but name), and Highcroft is a Honda Racing/HPD factory team in all but name now.

The Judd V10 is now about 20 years old, and so is Kristen Stewart. While Kristen is 20 years old literally and metaphorically, the Judd V10 in engine terms compared to Audi's V10-be it gas or diesel-dates back to the industrial revolution in technical terms.

And add to that there are no serious factory or privateer turbocharged gasoline engined efforts aside from the AER V8 that's only used in the ALMS.

You can't beat a factory teams' cubic dollars and research-Audi and Peugeot are able to claim 2008-esque power and torque figures in 2010 inspite of a 12% smaller air restrctor and about 10% less turbo boost. That's factory R&D right there, something that the likes of John Judd can't afford and other factories aren't willing/able to spend.

And all we have to do is look at the Audi R8-within a year of a 10% air restrictor cut, they were nearly as fast as in 2002, and set a new disance record in 2004(which the Audi R10(twice), Peugeot 908, and the Audi R15 shattered in '06, '08, '09, and '10).

This is factory vs privateer, pure and simple, as we all know that if Audi and Peugeot ran gasoline engined cars(a la the Audi R8 and Bentley Speed 8), they'd dominate just as much.

Simply put, you can't keep up with a car who's chassis and engine was designed in 2008 with a car that was designed in 2008 and has an engine that aside from displacment bumps hasn't really been updated in nearly 20 years.
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