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Old 15 Nov 2003, 16:06 (Ref:784374)   #1
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veeten should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridveeten should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Petition at the ACO site

just curious...

checked over at the ACO site a second ago, and saw a petition. It's been awhile since my high school French classes, but could someone tell me what this is about?

Fab, Ayse, Graham... anyone?:confused:
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Old 15 Nov 2003, 17:12 (Ref:784404)   #2
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Its certainly nothing to do with the ACOs motorsport activities - It reads more like a petition to protest about any forthcoming new-tech in car devices for the road (remember the ACO are a motoring organisation like the AA or RAC)
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Old 15 Nov 2003, 17:34 (Ref:784414)   #3
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veeten should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridveeten should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
oh, thanks Graham.
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Old 15 Nov 2003, 21:58 (Ref:784573)   #4
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Its main point is to protest about forthcoming government regulations, including the installation of 1000s of radar traps "which will catch thousand of light offences and bring in a billion Euros". (The French still use the "Milliard" , which the English did too until it was outsed but the American Billion, the French Billion is the American Trillion!).

It also goes on about accident black spots and young drivers. The ACO have published a document listing accident black spots.

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Old 16 Nov 2003, 07:52 (Ref:784821)   #5
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Nothing to ad, FG1 said everything !

Just one thing : ACO is much weaker than ADAC in Germany or RAC in UK, I think. Nobody pays atention to their protestations, they're too radicals against speed limits and so on (I have some in my professionnal surroudings, oh my, they're dangerous ! )

Last edited by Fab; 16 Nov 2003 at 07:53.
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Old 17 Nov 2003, 12:20 (Ref:785746)   #6
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Originally posted by FG1
including the installation of 1000s of radar traps "which will catch thousand of light offences and bring in a billion Euros". FG
Just what we need, more radar traps for the trip in June!!!
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Old 17 Nov 2003, 19:08 (Ref:786350)   #7
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Originally posted by Pilgrimage
Just what we need, more radar traps for the trip in June!!!
Yep, you can be sure of that!

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Old 18 Nov 2003, 10:55 (Ref:786919)   #8
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Every year it just gets worse and worse.
I am now consigned to the fact that it is going to take twice as long to get there as it could do... oh well, at least it will save my turbocharger
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Old 18 Nov 2003, 11:14 (Ref:786941)   #9
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Every year it just gets worse and worse.
I am now consigned to the fact that it is going to take twice as long to get there as it could do... oh well, at least it will save my turbocharger
Huh, more than 7000 fatalities each year in France on the roads, let's say we (froggies) are bad drivers and it's necessary to keep us in the limits.
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Old 18 Nov 2003, 13:00 (Ref:787051)   #10
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Yes, but the fatalities don't alweays arise from speeding.

The fact of the matter is that if the cameras catch the loonies doing silly speeds on public roads, then all well and good. But we all know that most of the millions of €'s will come from the likes of you and I doing just a few miles an hour over the top who are then caught by these traffic "taxation" cameras.........
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Old 18 Nov 2003, 13:31 (Ref:787103)   #11
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I agree Ayse, i wonder how many of those 7k occur due to the Le Mans crowd?
Do you think the French govt would go for a deregulated day on "mad friday"???? - No me neither!
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Old 23 Nov 2003, 14:51 (Ref:792181)   #12
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The trouble is that speeding ISN'T the biggest cause of accidents, by any means!

Transport Research Laboratory figures for the UK (compiled from Police accident reports) show that speed was only a factor in 7.1% of accidents. How this compares with France, I don't know, but from my own experience driving there, I feel safer/happier on French roads than those in the UK!

If anyone's interested in more details, I hope I'm allowed to mention the Association of British Drivers site http://www.abd.org.uk which has a lot more information.
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Old 23 Nov 2003, 19:15 (Ref:792323)   #13
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This is a terrificly difficult debate which is always hijacked by those with views at either end of the spectrum.

The fact is that very many accidents have more than one factor and whatever the ABD say speed is very often one of them.

I'll give you a for instance - i've just got home after being stuck in an almighty jam caused by an accident involving a fire engine - the vehicle ended up on the exit of a roundabout upside down in a wooded copse and had clearly at some point spun through 180 degrees as well.

Now this is supposition but I'd guess that poor weather, poor visibility, poor road conditions, driver error (on the part of the firefighter or another driver or both) and yes speed all possibly played a part in that.

I have no time for cameras hidden behind road signs or on safe straight sections of road away from residential areas but the fact of the matter is that too many of us drive too fast for the conditions or the type of road.

Ther are good and bad camera sitings in exactly the same way as there are good and bad drivers.
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Old 24 Nov 2003, 15:36 (Ref:793019)   #14
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To answer to tlracing, and to complete Graham's post above :
- 1/3 fatalities in France are mainly due to speed
- 1/3 fatalities are mainly due to alcohol
- 1/3 fatalities are due to others factors.

This is schematical, but shows the size of the situation.

BTW, think that french people are not keen to follow the rules, that's why we have to face a stronger repression.
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Old 24 Nov 2003, 16:08 (Ref:793048)   #15
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Originally posted by Fab
... french people are not keen to follow the rules...
most of them (us ??) doesn't even know the rules (you know : orange light: I stop ; Stop sign : ditto ; white ligne : I don't overtake ; things like that ...)
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Old 24 Nov 2003, 21:33 (Ref:793311)   #16
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Just to pick up one of Graham's points - it is not the ABD who says only 7% of UK road accidents is speed-derived, but the Police!

And yes, there are drivers who go too fast for the prevailing conditions, but what is the root cause of that? Is it 'speed' or is it 'poor driving'?

Their speed is surely a function of the latter, not the other way around!

I quite agree that excessive speed is potentially hazardous, but to tell people that 30mph is 'safe' is downright criminal in many easily-envisaged situations!

Enforcing speed limits with remote cameras does nothing to educate bad drivers - or, indeed, any other bad road useage (pedestrians who step off the pavement without looking, cyclists who ride without lights, etc.). Ultimately they are all potential statistics in the catalogue of road accidents, but very, very few break the speed limit.

I don't want to bang on about this but please, look at the facts - cameras may address one small aspect of road safety, but they don't do anything to target the real culprit.

To end, may I ask Fab for the source of the data?
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Old 24 Nov 2003, 23:38 (Ref:793417)   #17
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I don't want to go on about it either Tim but the TRL report has been hijacked by the ABD - I've read the report and I've read the ABD's interpretation of it. This is what TRL (who actually wrote it) say about it.

"The TRL study cited by the ABD, TRL Report 323, concerns "A new system for recording contributory factors in road accidents". TRL 323 is not a study of crash causation. It is a study of how to collect data. It was not designed to draw statistically reliable conclusions about the causes of road crashes. The accidents included in the three month study were not a statistically representative sample of all accidents. There is no basis for using the study to generalise about the speed-crash relationship."

I agree with you entirely that there is a mixed picture - but that means at least some cameras have a part to play alongside education and much better enforcement against bad driving.

Sometimes the bad driver is the guy that puts his foot right down in an area where he/she shouldn't, sometimes it isn't.

There's no excuse for piggy-bank cameras but there's no excuse for driving like a prat either.

Apologies for continuing this one but there are, as always, at least two sides to the story and I hate, really hate, any organisation (governmental or otherwise) that misrepresents the facts. If their arguement is good enough then why exagerrate the significance of an irrelevant study
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Old 25 Nov 2003, 06:07 (Ref:793565)   #18
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The first I hear that : an English driver was sent to jail yesterday by Calais's court ; he was caught at 242 km/h on the motorway.

Up to you, mates, but be careful, they're not kidding anymore !
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Old 25 Nov 2003, 06:11 (Ref:793567)   #19
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To end, may I ask Fab for the source of the data?
French medias ; they talk about that topic all day long nowadays.

You English friends don't seem to undestand at which point we french drivers are dangerous on the roads : and as Bernard says, there's nothing to educate us ; they only could enforce us to respect the law with a maximum of controls ; there's no reason in the french behavior, I'm sorry to say that, but some here know how "frenchphobic" I'm sometime !
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Old 25 Nov 2003, 08:17 (Ref:793657)   #20
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Interesting that the French media quote these figures, Fab - I wonder if they had them from the French Government, in the same way that the "1/3" statistic in the UK came from the UK Government?

Talking of which, the accident causes that added up to this were (% in brackets):

Failure to judge other persons path or speed (10.7%)
Excessive speed (7.3)
Following too close (4.1)
Slippery road (3.0)
Behaviour — in a hurry (2.7)
Aggressive driving (1.4)
Weather (eg mist or sleet) (0.8)
Other (Local conditions) (0.4)

The sad fact is that of the "Three E's" of road safety - Education, Engineering & Enforcement - the first two cost money whereas the latter, as has been ably demonstrated of late, raises revenue.

I agree there are too many bad road users (not just drivers) around - but not enough is being done to change this. And when 85% of road transport-derived Treasury income is spent on other things, is it too much to ask that poorly designed stretches of road are improved, for everyone's safety?

I applaud & support the ACO's initiative - there are far better and more effective ways to reduce casualties than arbitrary, dumb cameras!
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Old 25 Nov 2003, 09:47 (Ref:793749)   #21
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I think ACO position could fit English or German drivers, not sure for French ones...
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Old 25 Nov 2003, 11:03 (Ref:793821)   #22
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Originally posted by tlracing
The sad fact is that of the "Three E's" of road safety - Education, Engineering & Enforcement - the first two cost money whereas the latter, as has been ably demonstrated of late, raises revenue.

I'm delighted to say that in my household at least we're making professional contibutions to the first two of these 'E's
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Old 26 Nov 2003, 17:06 (Ref:795245)   #23
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I don't want to bang on about this but please, look at the facts - cameras may address one small aspect of road safety, but they don't do anything to target the real culprit.


I agree - 100%.

Every day, I see great piles of summonses issued against people who have driven too fast through a camera controlled section of road. To get to work in the morning, I go through a stretch of road no more than 12 miles, in which there are 3 cameras, all of which are sited on open roads (1 in a 40, 2 on dual carriage-way 50). To get home again, I go through 3 cameras, all on 50 dual-carriageway. None of these cameras is in any kind of accident black spot. And none of them are in areas where there is any more than minimal pedestrian activity, or housing, come to that. Its situations like this which give me my jaundiced view about speed cameras. (An attitude which I don't have for cameras situaed at traffic lighrs (yes, I have those on my journey as well... )
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Old 26 Nov 2003, 19:44 (Ref:795383)   #24
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Originally posted by bernard b
most of them (us ??) doesn't even know the rules (you know : orange light: I stop ; Stop sign : ditto ; white ligne : I don't overtake ; things like that ...)
No, no and no. Most of french drivers follow the rules. (I'm not speaking about Paris).

The main problems are :
- no anticipation of a dangerous situation (crossing a village, dangerous curves with no visibility, wet road...).
- the state of the roads (thousands and thousands kms in France).
The solutions : education, almost for youngest drivers ; make the roads more safety (costs a lot).
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Old 26 Nov 2003, 19:52 (Ref:795391)   #25
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The roads would be safer in EVERY country if two things were enacted IMMEDIATELY:

1. No women drivers

2. Anyone over the age of 75 cannot drive outside of the hours 9-11 a.m. and 1:30-3:30 p.m. and no weekends...since they are retired and have plenty of time on their hands during the week to do their shopping, etc....

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