"Why Won't The Other Kids Play With Me?" - Page 3

Run Free · 3 May 2001, 10:10 (Ref:88267)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by laxman
Ok,now for the TGF choice of teammate,
yes,he does have a choice.[quote]

Of couse he has. He never allowed ferrari to take a very competitive team mate, he always feared comparisons.

[quote]He single handedly brought them from a mid field team to one of the top teams in two years.[quote]

That's FALSE. Ferrari was not a midfield team , it was third in the standings for two years BEFORE TGF's (and other key personnel)arrival.

[quote]Look at JV.whats he achieving in the BAR.Forget about his podium place.All the drivers on teh podium were lucky one way or the other.HE has also been beaten by OP several times.HE would be the TGF of BAR if he was as good as TGF.But he isnt.And I believe no one is as good as TGF at present.[quote]

1) Why forget the podium? Have you forgotten that TGF's win was due to the same "luck"? Or have you forgotten how many times TGF's podiums and wins were extremely lucky?
2) JV was NEVER beaten by Panis . He has ALWAYS been ahead of him before that **** Bar Honda let him down. And anyway he's ahead of Panis both in the standings and in qualifying: his performance is more impressive considering that he had lots of problems with the car, and Panis had not.
3) You just can't compare ferrari and bar, because Bar started from zero, ferrari was a team third in the standings. Ergo, TGF went to a team that was near the top and better than Bar is actually.
Comparing TGF's and JV's performances and the cars and team mates they had the better one is clearly JV.

laxman · 3 May 2001, 12:20 (Ref:88300)

runfree,
I dont know what you were thinking when you made the quotes.Look at what youve quoted again.I have already said that all teh guys on the podium were lucky.
I can go on to answer all the points you have raised,but you have not come up with anything new.And i see no point in repeating the same sentenses.If anyone else feels the same as me,please reply to his questions.

And last.....you think JV is better than TGF.
I can just laugh.Actually it was looking at this statement that i decided it will be a waste to reply to your points.

...and spare the insults.....You think JV is going to win another championship...go ahead and support him.Thats no problem with me.

Run Free · 3 May 2001, 15:20 (Ref:88357)

Quote:

Originally posted by laxman
I can just laugh.Actually it was looking at this statement that i decided it will be a waste to reply to your points.
...and spare the insults.....You think JV is going to win another championship...

??????????

1) If my statements made you laugh, better for you, but to say this and to say also that is "waste" to replay is insulting me,isn't it? More, I'm allowed to think that you don't replay 'coz you have no valid arguments!
2) What are you referring to when saying me to "spare the insults"? What insults are you talking about?
3) I've never wrote that I think that JV is going to win another championship. For sure he can't this year, and I obviously don't know what will happen in the future. Please be careful with what you write about others.

laxman · 3 May 2001, 15:46 (Ref:88361)

Quote:

. He has ALWAYS been ahead of him before that **** Bar Honda let him down.

Thats an insult.Maybe not to me,but to a good team because your driver driver dosent seem to be able to deliver.BTW I have heard that BAR have already told JV that they expect a better performance from him and his place in the team shouldnt be taken for granted.May we expect him to race a minardi next year??

Quote:

but to say this and to say also that is "waste" to replay is insulting me,isn't it?

I think its a waste replying because you seem to have already made up your mind about who is better.I can influence you only if you are undecided.IF we go on arguing,it will just end up in a fight.The statement is not an insult

Quote:

) I've never wrote that I think that JV is going to win another championship. For sure he can't this year, and I obviously don't know what will happen in the future. Please be careful with what you write about others.

Ok,you didnt write that he would win teh championship.but the way you were defending him,i felt you think he is going to win a few more.BTW whats it that got you pumped up so much there.I just said you were free to support him if you wanted!!

Damon · 3 May 2001, 15:50 (Ref:88363)

And once again a post has turned into a - you don't agree with me so your idoit - rant. For the record I agree with Run Free (although his choice of username suggests he's a little biased). Laxman, let the rest of us have our oppinions even if you don't agree with them and try to argue your case without merly insulting us.

Back to question however, I feel that the the meaning of the word 'best' needs to be clarified. Are we refering purely to results, purely to talent and ability or a mixture of the two?

Orange · 3 May 2001, 16:09 (Ref:88367)

Ok, I'll go along with this... put Jaques in a Mclaren! Of course, if BAR could only get their chassis right, the engine is there... *sigh*

As for laxmans arguements, I think he is the first person i have ever heard call Jaques the "weakest link" at BAR... This claim is frankly ridiculous... Take one look at the team, and its obvious that the drivers and the engine are the real deal, and that the weakest link is the s**** Reynard chassis... will this change when Honda assumes full control of the team? lets hope so, and the sooner the better!

Anyway, as much of a JV fan as I am, I am still not 100% convinced that he could make TGF eat his dust, in an equal car... or maybe he could.. I dont know

Run Free · 3 May 2001, 16:45 (Ref:88380)

Quote:

Originally posted by laxman

Thats an insult.Maybe not to me,but to a good team because your driver driver dosent seem to be able to deliver.BTW I have heard that BAR have already told JV that they expect a better performance from him and his place in the team shouldnt be taken for granted.May we expect him to race a minardi next year??

A PODIUM IS "NOT DELIVERING"? Having as much points as Hakkinen is "not delivering"? What the hell are you saying?
OK, the first JACQUES HAS DELIVERED THE FIRST POINTS (last year) AND THEN THE FIRST PODIUM IN BAR'S HISTORY, and has more points of Panis and as much points as Hakkinen, that is driving a McLaren. AND THIS HAPPENED THE FIRST TIME THAT HIS CAR DIDN'T BROKE DOWN AND HIS TEAM WORKED WELL.
In all the races of this season Jacques was IN THE POINTS (and obviously well ahead of Panis) before something bad happened, and not for his fault. In qualifying in Spain his car had not the rear brakes and was 10 kg. overweight! It's not Jacques that was not delivering, the car and the team were not delivering, so please don't make ridiculous statement like this.
Jacques has wasted a lot of time in this "good team".
I sincerely hope that Jacques will use his clause and will leave from a team that have failed to maintain the promises he made!

Damon and Orange, thanks for the support.

Damon, for me "the best" has the better mixture of talent, ability, strenght and results. Jacques is a huge talent and has won an Indy Championship, an Indy 505

and a WC. He's also proven himself partnering with other talented drivers in equal cars. IMO he's the best of the current field and one of the best ever.

Liz · 3 May 2001, 17:34 (Ref:88406)

How did this turn into a thread about Jacques?

You guys please stop the name calling, eh? If we all agreed on which pilot was the best there would be no reason to run the races at all. Differences of opinion is what makes the whole trick work.

I have the distinct impression that if Jacques and TGF were on the same team, we would see a replay of Mansell and Piquet at Williams (on track and off), with Jacques cast in the role of Piquet (only without all the wives). While this might be funny, I fear it would end by handing the WDC to McLaren on a silver steering wheel. But put him in a McLaren to team with his old pal DC and watch the dust fly.

laxman · 3 May 2001, 18:14 (Ref:88431)

Quote:

And once again a post has turned into a - you don't agree with me so your idoit - rant. For the record I agree with Run Free (although his choice of username suggests he's a little biased). Laxman, let the rest of us have our oppinions even if you don't agree with them and try to argue your case without merly insulting us.

What?????
Are you really talking about the posts on this thread??
If anything,im the one trying to stop a fight.And hello......who am I insulting again???
Perhaps you could enlighten me.

ok...just for confirmation..here are my quotes.

Quote:

I think its a waste replying because you seem to have already made up your mind about who is better.I can influence you only if you are undecided.IF we go on arguing,it will just end up in a fight.The statement is not an insult

Quote:

I just said you were free to support him if you wanted!!

ok orange,

Quote:

As for laxmans arguements, I think he is the first person i have ever heard call Jaques the "weakest link" at BAR... This claim is frankly ridiculous... Take one look at the team, and its obvious that the drivers and the engine are the real deal, and that the weakest link is the s**** Reynard chassis... will this change when Honda assumes full control of the team? lets hope so, and the sooner the better!

I never called him the weakest link.But now im going to step in and say that if anything,he is not the strongest link.For those of you blaming the car.Learn something from alonso.How is he driving so well in a minardi??
A great driver can the best out of any car,a good driver, only from a good car.here is my list of best drivers at present
Michael schumacher
Mika Hakkinen
Fernando Alonso (is the spelling right??)
Ralf schumacher
David coulthard
Juan Pablo Montoya
and then mr JV.

This is my last say on the topic and I wont post any more posts on this thread.Actually this topic dosent belong to this thread.(sorry about that liz).I will end by saying one thing...

JV will remain a driver one will have to be reminded of and not a driver one will remember!!

EERO · 3 May 2001, 18:41 (Ref:88447)

Laxman, I can't say that I disagree with your list.

And I will step in here to say, that though I no fan of MSchumacher, I clearly ackowledge his complete mastery and dominance. No one can touch him. Montoya may develop into that man, maybe even Alonso-but for now he is peerless. Though I respect Hakkinen and like him immensely, he does not consistently perform at TGF"s level. DC on a good day is close, but there have been too many bad days.
I admire JV's tenacity, but he makes his share of boneheaded moves and even during his WDC year, did not dominate.

The fact is, all of these guys are VERY good, and it is possible to like and support a driver without having to insist that he could wipe the floor with everyone else.

I much prefer to watch a flawed talent put it all together on a special day and surprise us, than to see the juggernaut roll on.

By the way, I like to think that conversations meander and grow and take on a life of their own, these recent comments may be off-thread, but I think they operate within the context of the overall discussion.

Tristan · 3 May 2001, 20:41 (Ref:88494)

Yes, back to the topic.

I think the reason why TGF seems to have such a smothering influence over the team is also, in part, due to the sheer amount of quality input he can put into a team. When testing he is capable of producing a plethora of data the mechanics can work with. His diriving style is unique, very attacking with BAGS of oversteer realtive to amny other drivers on the grid. As a result of this data, the car itself is effectivly built with TGF in mind. He aslo stays at a team for years, so the car can develop year after year. He's only REALLY ever been at two teams. Team-mates come and go, but he stays. The car is thus effectivly custom built for HIM.

He is immensly talented, but must also be a NIGHTMARE to be a teammate with. It must be like being mates with the guy at school who does TONNES of work in the library and gets the grades whilst you're plodding along merely "passing".

Any way, I'll make my point from the previous page again. Is the fact that TGF is SO dominieering stifling Ferrari a little?

Is it time for FERRARI to move on from TGF??

**Bononi** · 3 May 2001, 21:09 (Ref:88502)

FERRARI thinking about a replacement for TGF because he doesn't talk ?

I really doubt it !

I just read in one the most important Newspapers around, I can't telling it is the truth but coming from them :

"Last thursday, Barrichello had a meeting with Ferrari principals. The subject of the meeting was a Barrichello offer to retain his seat at Ferrari. The driver proposes a cut in his salary being compensated by more space in his helmet,caps and car for his own sponsorship. The result of the meeting was that Ferrari must reply Barrichello's offer until August,29. After that the brazilian is free to negotiate with others teams.
Altough Rubens did not mention anything, a close person to the driver confirmed that Prost and Jordan have interest in the brazilian, mostly because Ferrari is talking to other drivers and Michael Schumacher will be staying with the italian team until 2005."
Folha de São Paulo, 3rd of May, Thursday.

Well...

Run Free · 3 May 2001, 22:05 (Ref:88517)

Quote:

Originally posted by laxman

A great driver can the best out of any car,a good driver, only from a good car.here is my list of best drivers at present
Michael schumacher
Mika Hakkinen
Fernando Alonso (is the spelling right??)
Ralf schumacher
David coulthard
Juan Pablo Montoya
and then mr JV.

once again I disagree. If you say that "a great driver can the best out of any car, a good driver, only from a good car", then you can't put Schumacher and Montoya in that list. Schumacher drove only good cars in all his career, so you just can't say if he's great or simply good: he never proved himself.
Montoya had only five races in f1, all with a winning car: it's the same.
Among those drivers, only JV and Alonso had very **** cars. But, when Villeneuve had a winning car, he won, even if his team raced for ferrari.
Villeneuve won a WC, a Indy Championship, an Indy 505, and showed some astonishing performance in a very very **** car. If you say that he "will remain a driver one have to be reminded of" you're making obvious (and ridiculous) bashing.

Liz · 3 May 2001, 23:22 (Ref:88533)

I have been tipped by someone who hears a lot of pitlane gossip that Rubens is being courted by Toyota for their new team. While this would obviously not make Nishy very happy, it is an option.

Isn't silly season fun?

But speaking of TGF again, isn't it curious how just as he is about to best Senna's record in something - something happens to prevent him? (Just a coincidence I'm sure but a strange one.)

Wrex · 4 May 2001, 03:40 (Ref:88629)

Quote:

Originally posted by EERO
....I clearly ackowledge his complete mastery and dominance. No one can touch him. Montoya may develop into that man, maybe even Alonso-but for now he is peerless. Though I respect Hakkinen and like him immensely, he does not consistently perform at TGF"s level. DC on a good day is close, but there have been too many bad days.

Thank you EERO, you have summerised my thoughts precisely. Like it or not, @ this point in time, TGF is the man. Just as Senna before him. That said eventually, another will come, and we will be here having this same discussion. Driver X would never beaten TGF or Senna etc.

Quote:

Originally posted by EERO
....The fact is, all of these guys are VERY good, and it is possible to like and support a driver without having to insist that he could wipe the floor with everyone else.

Again EERO, total agreement. With 1 or 2 exceptions, these guys are the best drivers on the planet. I often wonder how much of what we say in this forum we would have the guts to repeat to a drivers face. I'm far from being a DC fan, but I could'nt tell him he lacked talent unless I could jump in a F1 car and prove it(would'nt succeed, but I'd enjoy the ridiculous attempt

)

Damon · 4 May 2001, 12:15 (Ref:88825)

Quote:

Originally posted by laxman

A great driver can the best out of any car,a good driver, only from a good car.here is my list of best drivers at present
Michael schumacher
Mika Hakkinen
Fernando Alonso (is the spelling right??)
Ralf schumacher
David coulthard
Juan Pablo Montoya
and then mr JV.

Lax, I wasn't talking about just this post and nt just you particularly. I somtimes get the impression that we are not allowed our opinions and what I had read by your self came to mind. As for your list of current 'greats' please explain how you can place Alonso above Montoya when you are critising JPM based on his results, regardless of the situation. I havn't yet seen Alonso out qualify or out race Montoya and according to many of you here that would make him a worse driver. I agree that Alonso is a star of the future but give Montoya his due.

laxman · 4 May 2001, 13:25 (Ref:88866)

Ok damon,
You think I shouldnt place alonso ahead of JPM because he has not beaten JPM yet.LEt me remind you that JPM is driving a williams which is teh third best car on the grid(some would call it second....and a few pthers would call it the best) and alonso is driving a minardi.
The reason why JPM is so low down in the list is because he has never beaten ralf in true pace till now.Actually he has been slower throughout the year and in the last race was consistently about 6 tenths slower.As for alonso,he has totally outshined his teammate and has even beaten the benettons which most people would consider a better car than minardi.So you see,I had to place JPM below ralf.As for me placing alonso third,I think he deserves that.But we will know that only when he drives fro a top team.
I hope I have answered all your questions.

Damon · 4 May 2001, 13:46 (Ref:88872)

That's my point!! How on the one hand can you put down JPM on his lack of results whilst on the other praise Alonso based on what he may acheive. Yes Montoya should beat Alonso and he is but this takes nothing away from Montoya. i rate him based on his acheivments and demonstrated ability both outside and within F1. Don't look at his ability blindly from the first 4 races of his F1 career.

laxman · 4 May 2001, 13:53 (Ref:88874)

As far as i can see,i have given him the position on what he has already achieved.he beat the benettons and beat his teammate by 1 or 2 seconds!!Thats good enough for me.Im just saying that he may achieve more later.But im judging him based only on what he has done already.

Damon · 4 May 2001, 14:06 (Ref:88876)

His team mate is Tarso Marques, I think I could beat Tarso Marques. Montoya's team mate is Ralf Schumcher, how can you possibly compare the two based on competion within their own teams. Ralf is a great racing driver, Marques is not.

Orange · 4 May 2001, 15:25 (Ref:88892)

Damon has a very good point there

downforce · 4 May 2001, 18:50 (Ref:88959)

"My point remains: If TGF is the best guy who ever steered an RC car around a track, why does he have to have it in writing that no one is allowed to beat him? Do you really think that if Montoya raced for Ferrari and started to outqualify and out run him, that suddenly his tires would go missing, his pit stops would be strangely timed, and he would find himself shouldered off the piste by some German fellow who "didn't see him"? Fortunately he knows that. His daddy didn't raise no fool. "

Liz,
Good to see you finally found someone from the current crop!!!

While i agree Juan is hot, hes got lots more to prove to ME before he can even reach the threshold to the 'legends' manor!

Hey youre even agreeing Jacques will be awesome in a Mclaren?...geez!
Think youre growing VERY old!!

EERO,
I know u were there in Montreal'00...aw c'mon!!!Rubens flying past Mich...gregwniuh,l;greh5bu76548u7.....
Damn, it was the team that asked Schuey to back-off, jus like the other Schu was asked to give ole 'down' Hill the victory in Spa...pff!

laxman · 5 May 2001, 00:30 (Ref:89089)

ok damon,
If you start saying that you are better than f1 drivers,we neednt have this discussion.There is a good reason why you and me are in front of our comps discussing about them while they are racing.Moreover alonso not only beat his teammate but also beat the benetton cars.read my post again.THat is extraordinary and i think he is something special.

SH0077 · 5 May 2001, 01:00 (Ref:89100)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Valve Bounce
[B]I think very few drivers are prepared to be a Schu shine boy. [F]

Why wouldn't Bunsen or that new Flying Finn serve as Schumachers apprentice? Im sure that Schumacher and Ferrari would love to have a younger driver around helping Shuey to a 4th and maybe 5th WDC and then passing on the mantle to a most appriciative learner who would then have full Ferrari backing behind them (With Schumacher continuing to help). The thought of Raikkonen pushing Shuey, the young versus the old! It has all the passions of F1 written all over it.

Liz · 5 May 2001, 02:15 (Ref:89138)

The thought of Kimi being held back for three years and forced to kowtow to a bully ... you really think that would do his career good? Were TGF the benevolant Yoda clone you envision, that would be different ... but to talk about him helping a rival to eclipse him is to talk airy persiflage.

Nope. At this stage in his career, as his own manager says, Kimi needs to stay at Sauber and gain experience and incidentally see what is going on at Ferrari, before he takes a step like that one.

As for Jacques, if he has a chance to make one last outstanding season out of a pretty indifferent F1 career, a McLaren drive is his best bet. And with the "TGF is ****" attitude he has always had, the sparks would fly on and off the track. It'll never happen but it would be fun.

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