[Team] Mercedes: Will they ever dominate again?

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Mike Harte

When it comes to driving tactics, one incident that has always stuck in my mind when it comes to Hamilton although the details are quite sketchy to me now and it has always reminded me that Hamilton is not a totally blameless driver.

Whilst he was at McLaren with Button, during one of the races in Canada, Button was just in front of Hamilton as they passed the pits. Hamilton then dived down the inside expecting Button to yield, but he didn't do so, with the result that Hamilton ended up on the grass verge, colliding with an advertising board that was placed on the grass.

I can't remember what happened after that, whether Hamilton continued or not, but something tells me that he had to go into the pits for damage.

HAM continued, Button got a penalty and Jenson still went onto win the best win of his career.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Tourer

Nah - whilst clearly all teams are likely to defend their own drivers, Mercedes has elevated that approach almost to the art-form level.

Nope you are getting them confused with Red Bull. You need to listen to the Beyond the Grid podcast with Karen Horner from a couple of years ago. It was the ultimate cringefest in self righteousness. Basically when looking back at the 2021 season he made it all about how his team were the good guys who did no wrong and all the controversy was caused by Merc. Stuck up for Masi, ignoring the fact he criticised just as much as everyone else prior to AD. Couldn’t just admit he got lucky with Masi’s decision at the end. What really summed it up for me was when he was asked about the Brazil incident and whether both Lewis and Max were feeling the pressure, he immediately answered “oh Lewis definitely”, showing that he can’t even admit his own driver might be in the wrong sometimes

So don’t tell me Lewis and Merc are worse. Lewis has never pushed another driver like Max has. Also Lewis can take one for the team, like Hungary 2017, despite the fact he was in an intense title fight at the time. Unlike Max who refused to help Checo in Brazil despite the fact he was already champ. And Toto has defended Max, saying that he doesn’t think his dominance is harming F1 and that slowing Red Bull would be like WWE. Unlike Horner who was always crying about how Merc dominance was ruining F1 and they needed to be slowed.

I rest my case that Merc has a much more grounded and less poisonous atmosphere than RBR

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Nope you are getting them confused with Red Bull. You need to listen to the Beyond the Grid podcast with Karen Horner from a couple of years ago. It was the ultimate cringefest in self righteousness. Basically when looking back at the 2021 season he made it all about how his team were the good guys who did no wrong and all the controversy was caused by Merc. Stuck up for Masi, ignoring the fact he criticised just as much as everyone else prior to AD. Couldn’t just admit he got lucky with Masi’s decision at the end. What really summed it up for me was when he was asked about the Brazil incident and whether both Lewis and Max were feeling the pressure, he immediately answered “oh Lewis definitely”, showing that he can’t even admit his own driver might be in the wrong sometimes

So don’t tell me Lewis and Merc are worse. Lewis has never pushed another driver like Max has. Also Lewis can take one for the team, like Hungary 2017, despite the fact he was in an intense title fight at the time. Unlike Max who refused to help Checo in Brazil despite the fact he was already champ. And Toto has defended Max, saying that he doesn’t think his dominance is harming F1 and that slowing Red Bull would be like WWE. Unlike Horner who was always crying about how Merc dominance was ruining F1 and they needed to be slowed.

I rest my case that Merc has a much more grounded and less poisonous atmosphere than RBR

Irrespective of where your allegiances lie - this statement rings true:
They are all as bad as each other.

And there's no evidence that presents to prove otherwise.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Skam85

Irrespective of where your allegiances lie - this statement rings true:
They are all as bad as each other.

And there's no evidence that presents to prove otherwise.

No they are not. Some are worse than others. And I’ve just given some pretty good evidence to back it up

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I rest my case that Merc has a much more grounded and less poisonous atmosphere than RBR

That wasn't what you claimed originally, here is what you said:

If Max does go to Merc, he will find he won’t be able to get away with his behaviour as much as he has done at RBR. Merc seem better at grounding drivers young and old

They are two different things entirely. If Mercedes was in fact better at "grounding" drivers, so they don't "get away" with poor behaviour then neither of their current drivers (one long term, the other medium term with the team) wouldn't be considered by many on here to be "up there" in the dirty driving stakes. I'd also suggest that a team genuinely good at grounding drivers and reducing poor behaviour wouldn't have allowed a driver to carry on for so long on something as basic as the wearing of metal jewellery during races, but that's a whole other kettle of fish.

Both Horner and Wolff have both praised each other's drivers and also been negative about them, not unusual in competition generally. Neither is pure, one isn't necessarily better than the other and it is certainly true that they are all as bad as each other when they choose to be bad.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Perhaps there should be a poll, for dirtiest F1 driver ever.

[bathurst77]

It would be funny if max goes to MB-AMG
All those years of Toto hating on him, and christian singing his praises as st Gabreal's right hand man... turned on its head/

[bathurst77]

I dont think I have ever thought of lewis as clean driver and he is famous for dummy spits, calling my tyres are had it, blaming the pit crew.

When the main game of the last 5 years or so has been some upstart young foreigner vs "He is an English man! Hurrah for the English man!" SIR Lewis.
Who is the mostly UK based English language media (sky sports f1 and most of the print/web media) going to praise and fawn over? Even more so given Lewis is more media savvy and friendly where Max tends to hide awy making column inches and quotes harder work.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I rest my case that Merc has a much more grounded and less poisonous atmosphere than RBR

This is total imagination. Neither team has a poisonous atmosphere. In fact one of the strengths of BOTH teams is that they have very welcoming and supportive atmospheres. If asked to judge, I’d say RBR slightly better, after all the years of massive effort they had to put in to catch up to Merc.

If you’re going to judge such things by the English media and watching English TV then you’ve got literally zero chance.

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

Perhaps there should be a poll, for dirtiest F1 driver ever.

This image immediately sprang into my mind:

Which can be a right, and also a very wrong answer!

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

This image immediately sprang into my mind:
Attachment 79247
Which can be a right, and also a very wrong answer!

I think it's the perfect answer - and neatly sums up the need to move on.....

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by peebee2

This is total imagination. Neither team has a poisonous atmosphere. In fact one of the strengths of BOTH teams is that they have very welcoming and supportive atmospheres. If asked to judge, I’d say RBR slightly better, after all the years of massive effort they had to put in to catch up to Merc.

If you’re going to judge such things by the English media and watching English TV then you’ve got literally zero chance.

Just stop now. This is a forum, not an echo chamber. If you don't like people having a different view from you, don't come on this forum or any forum for that matter. Your opinion is not more important than any one else's. So stop saying it's my imagination or that I'm swayed by English media, because it's not helping your case here.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Just stop now. This is a forum, not an echo chamber. If you don't like people having a different view from you, don't come on this forum or any forum for that matter. Your opinion is not more important than any one else's. So stop saying it's my imagination or that I'm swayed by English media, because it's not helping your case here.

LOL, you're perfectly entitled to an opinion of course, but when you post that opinion as fact when it's actually anything but the truth it's going to be called out, much as you were by several people above.

Best thing is if I put you on block/ignore. I did have you like that before but you somehow got reset back to being visible.

[Plantagenet]

Shall we move back to the point about Russell? Apologies if previously mentioned, but just my thoughts.
I think we all agree he had an underwhelming 23' season, but i personally feel he had a strong 22' season with Mercedes's only win and outscoring Hamilton.

And, by my recollection, the only other drivers in F1 to outscore Hamilton over a season were Alonso, Button and Rosberg. And, of course, there were all former WDCs or in Rosberg's case, won the WDC that season.

Fully appreciate the 22' season was slightly odd with the rule change but that was true for both drivers at Mercedes. So, I personally feel that Russell has done enough for the team to pivot behind him this year as the potential leader in 25'.....but the pressure now is firmly on and if anything, that seemed to be his undoing last year. We'll see!

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

Shall we move back to the point about Russell? Apologies if previously mentioned, but just my thoughts.
I think we all agree he had an underwhelming 23' season, but i personally feel he had a strong 22' season with Mercedes's only win and outscoring Hamilton.

And, by my recollection, the only other drivers in F1 to outscore Hamilton over a season were Alonso, Button and Rosberg. And, of course, there were all former WDCs or in Rosberg's case, won the WDC that season.

Fully appreciate the 22' season was slightly odd with the rule change but that was true for both drivers at Mercedes. So, I personally feel that Russell has done enough for the team to pivot behind him this year as the potential leader in 25'.....but the pressure now is firmly on and if anything, that seemed to be his undoing last year. We'll see!

Absolutely. He can pull it round. 2024 is his chance and he needs to take it or be a good number two going forward.

Personally I doubt he's a top-end team leader, but he can prove me wrong.

[BertMk2]

You'd have to assume that Mercedes will favour Russell this season - Hamilton will gradually be sidelined and edged out as the season progresses (as will Sainz at Ferrari). This gives Russell the chance to prove that he's the future lead driver that the team need - if he doesn't take that chance then Toto will need to find another top bracket driver from somewhere, if George does step up then Toto can settle for a 'good not great' driver for the second seat.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

You'd have to assume that Mercedes will favour Russell this season - Hamilton will gradually be sidelined and edged out as the season progresses (as will Sainz at Ferrari). This gives Russell the chance to prove that he's the future lead driver that the team need - if he doesn't take that chance then Toto will need to find another top bracket driver from somewhere, if George does step up then Toto can settle for a 'good not great' driver for the second seat.

Yes, although the challenge is that they really need to swoop long before George can prove whether or not he can improve and fill the team-leader void.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Yes, although the challenge is that they really need to swoop long before George can prove whether or not he can improve and fill the team-leader void.

I guess that depends on who they're looking at - if they're considering drivers that are under contract with other teams then there's less time pressure on the decision. If Russell looks the part then they've got the options of Antonelli and Schumacher on their books already for the supporting role. I think the only driver they really need to make a quick decision on would be Sainz - before he signs for someone else.

[S griffin]

Merc have said both drivers will be treated fairly. However this is a big season for Russell to show he is first class material

[Plantagenet]

Originally Posted by peebee2

Absolutely. He can pull it round. 2024 is his chance and he needs to take it or be a good number two going forward.

Personally I doubt he's a top-end team leader, but he can prove me wrong.

I'm with you peebee - I feel he may be destined to the same fate as the other F1 driver from Kings Lynn!!

[VIVA GT]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

I'm with you peebee - I feel he may be destined to the same fate as the other F1 driver from Kings Lynn!!

Well, George always comes over well when interviewed, perhaps he would eventually make a good pundit for TV. But that would also have to come after quite a bit of success in sports cars...

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

Shall we move back to the point about Russell? Apologies if previously mentioned, but just my thoughts.
I think we all agree he had an underwhelming 23' season, but i personally feel he had a strong 22' season with Mercedes's only win and outscoring Hamilton.

And, by my recollection, the only other drivers in F1 to outscore Hamilton over a season were Alonso, Button and Rosberg. And, of course, there were all former WDCs or in Rosberg's case, won the WDC that season.

Fully appreciate the 22' season was slightly odd with the rule change but that was true for both drivers at Mercedes. So, I personally feel that Russell has done enough for the team to pivot behind him this year as the potential leader in 25'.....but the pressure now is firmly on and if anything, that seemed to be his undoing last year. We'll see!

I expect Mercedes to treat their drivers equally for the first 5 or 6 races. Then they will swing their efforts behind whoever is leading in the championship at that point. It's the sensible thing to do: if Lewis can secure another WDC in a Merc, that is good for him and the team. If George is in front, Mercedes can nurture him as their next big thing.

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by Plantagenet

Shall we move back to the point about Russell? Apologies if previously mentioned, but just my thoughts.
I think we all agree he had an underwhelming 23' season, but i personally feel he had a strong 22' season with Mercedes's only win and outscoring Hamilton.

And, by my recollection, the only other drivers in F1 to outscore Hamilton over a season were Alonso, Button and Rosberg. And, of course, there were all former WDCs or in Rosberg's case, won the WDC that season.

Fully appreciate the 22' season was slightly odd with the rule change but that was true for both drivers at Mercedes. So, I personally feel that Russell has done enough for the team to pivot behind him this year as the potential leader in 25'.....but the pressure now is firmly on and if anything, that seemed to be his undoing last year. We'll see!

George Russell won the F2 title in his rookie year. In a field that included Lando Norris and Alex Albon. (And Latifi and Devries) He also won 7 races which is the same as Leclerc did in his rookie F2 title year. Russell is absolutely elite and the reason why Mercedes weren't offering Hamiton more than 2 years.

Russell got a win and 19 top 5's in his first year at Mercedes. Yet it seems to count for nothing for a lot of ppl because of 2023. He already proved himself in 2022. And even in 2023, he beat hamiton in qualifying. They ended up tied for GP qualifying. But Russell out paced him in sprint qualifying which is as fair of a tie breaker as anything

[peebee2]

F2 is very hit and miss as an arbiter. Latifi eventually finishing second is a great example.

Russell beat a very demotivated Hamilton by a relatively small margin in 2022, then was destroyed by a still far from his best Hamilton in 2023.

These are reasons why Russell has not convinced those he needs to as of yet.

[PanozDP01]

Originally Posted by peebee2

F2 is very hit and miss as an arbiter. Latifi eventually finishing second is a great example.

Russell beat a very demotivated Hamilton by a relatively small margin in 2022, then was destroyed by a still far from his best Hamilton in 2023.

These are reasons why Russell has not convinced those he needs to as of yet.

Ah. A very demotivated Hamilton. The same Hamilton who said in the off season that he was going to waste everyone.

It wasn't close. Not only did Russell beat Hamilton in 2022. So did Carlos Sainz.

Suddenly now , F2 titles mean nothing eh. Norris and Albon are #1 drivers in F1. Russell beat them both. Leclercs rookie F2 title is what got him the Ferrari #1 seat.

Oh really. Russell hasn't convinced those he needs to. He very much has in reality. This is why Hamilton wasn't offered more than 1 year plus an option in his last 2 contract negotiations. The attempts to water down Russell by LH fans is just funny.