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Old 18 Nov 2004, 14:36 (Ref:1157088)   #1
Roundy Mooney
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Modified Concept Car

With the end of the season I thought it would be interesting/fun to see if anybody had any good ideas for a modified car?

The stalwarts Fords and Opels have been challenged with some unique cars being built lately. Lotus, Micra, Golfvanmans TT and Bellerby's RWD 206 on the way.

So on a serious note does anybody have any views on the way forward in the class for a car to be competitive ie RWD/FWD, engine size and type of car.

On a lighter note if money was no object and being competitive was not a issue what concoction could you come up with?

For me a RWD Seat Cordoba with the 4.2 Litre Donkey from the Audi A8 would probably bring me straight to the scene of the accident !!!
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 15:24 (Ref:1157106)   #2
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For me a RWD Seat Cordoba with the 4.2 Litre Donkey from the Audi A8 would probably bring me straight to the scene of the accident !!!
Sounds like fun

I know i go on alot about Tdi and stuff, but the technology has come a long way in such a short space of time (some 15 years ago audi threw a turbo into their diesel engines and were told they are fools, now most a4's are tdi's).

Diesel powered cars have had alot of sucsess in the past few years, Volkswagen Racing with their VW Golf Mk4 GT-Tdi animal! (I saw this at lurgan park one year and it was by far one of the quickest i have seen! that was in 99 i think).

Most recently Opels Diesel Racer powered by their new CDTI engines (Common Rail Diesel Turbo Injection) is renouned.

Diesel Technology is the furture in Road Car Technology and certainly i can forsee it in most competition cars in some 10 - 15 years.

VW / Audi have multiple awards with their diesel technology their most recent accomplishment is their "1-Zylinder" One Cylinder Diesel concept which won an award back in august / september.

So where im basicaly leading is a Diesel Class, now ive not said this just to glorafy my knowladges of diesel, knor do i wish just to be different. But from Expirence Diesel Engines can be tuned easyer to produce more power and they are ultimatly more reliable because of their rpm range.

So my idea for a realistic classes would be a few different classes:

1.) Common Rail Or Direct Injection Diesel Turbo Cars Upto 2049cc
2.) Common Rail or Direct Injection Diesel Non-Turbo Cars upto 2049cc
3.) Common Rail or Direct Injection Diesel Turbo Cars upto 1449cc
4.) Common Rail or Direct Injection Diesel Turbo Cars Upto 1249cc

The four classes leave it vastly open for a viriety of cars,

Class would would have:

VW Golf 1.9 TDi
VW Golf 2.0 TDi
VW Bora 1.9 TDi
Audi A3 1.9 TDi
Audi A4 1.9 Tdi
Opel Vectra CDTI 1.9
Opel Vectra CDTI 1.7
Ford Focus DuraTorque CTDI (?? CDTI ??) 1.7
Ford Focus DuraTorque CTDI (?? CDTI ??) 1.8
Ford Focus DuraTorque CTDI (?? CDTI ??) 1.9
Ford Mondeo DuraTorque Sports Diesel 1.9
Ford Mondeo DuraTorque Sports Diesel 2.0
Mercedes A170 Diesel Turbo 1.7
Mercedes A190 Diesel Turbo 1.9
Citroen C4 1.9 HDI
Citroen C4 2.0 HDI
Peugeot 307 HDI 1.9 ??
Fiat Stillo 1.9 Diesel Turbo
and the list continues....

Class 2 Could comprise of:

Seat Cordoba SDi 1.9
Seat Tolledo SDi 1.9
Seat Ibiza SDi 1.9
Volkswagen Golf 1.9 SDi
etc...

Class 3 could comprise of:

Citroen C3 1.4 HDi
Citroen C2 1.4 HDi
Opel Corsa 1.3 CDTI
Peugeot 307 1.4 HDi
Peugeot 206 1.4 HDi
VW Polo 1.4 TDi
Audi A2 1.4 TDi

Class 4 could be:

Audi A2 1.2 Tdi
Opel Corsa 1.2 CDTi
VW Lupo 1.2 Tdi
Peugeot 1007 :P 1.2 HDi
etc...

Keep it cheep and cheerfull,

Class 1 regs could be:

BHP Limited to 180bhp (easy enough as most models come with 150 as standard), Cage, Seat, Beltz, Extinguisher etc... H Pattern Gearbox, Gearkits alowed, standard turbo and insides must be retained etc..

Class 2 Regs Could be:

BHP Limited to 130BHP (much harder to do with SDi as most engines are around 75bhp, however gives an nice variation of hp in the class). Rest same as above.

Class 3 Regs Could be:

BHP Limited to 130BHP also (Easyer to get 130 from these engines as the system can be tuned easyer with the turbo.) Standard Turbo and Internals Must be used.

Class 4 Regs could be:

BHP Limited to 110BHP (Harder than SDi to get power out of but power can be accived, standard engines would be at 60 BHP) Rules as above, turbo and internal must be as standard for that engine.

Diesel tuning is easyer than most think, simple race ecu mapping rather than an all round road mapping sees the 150 bhp VW Engine produce 170bhp from a simple reprogramming, changing the injectors and increasing turbo boost will result in more hp gain.

Engine detonations are rare because of the RPM range (Generaly only upto 5500-6000, but power ranges between 1250 and 4500).

In my eyes it looks to be a cost effective class and cars will have alot of poke, giving you more bangs for your buck!

Last edited by Cryos; 18 Nov 2004 at 15:25.
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 15:47 (Ref:1157120)   #3
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Feicin sorry I asked
Any new novels on the way Rixe
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 15:58 (Ref:1157127)   #4
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Bored were you Rxie, had a few hours to kill.
You said it Roundy Mooney, does that answer your question?
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 16:54 (Ref:1157169)   #5
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Just remebered what I would really like for rallycross one of these with a roll cage.

Now where did I leave that list for the big man who arrives dec 25th.
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 17:02 (Ref:1157178)   #6
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Excellent choice.
Like to see that going round Mondello. What colour scheme though?
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 17:03 (Ref:1157182)   #7
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So on a serious note does anybody have any views on the way forward in the class for a car to be competitive ie RWD/FWD, engine size and type of car.
lol *remembers never to take part in any opinionated questions ever again on this forum*

I was being realistic, jesus. ill keep my mought shut next time.

While your at it you might aswell put down a Maclaren F1 seeing as its suppose to be a serious hack at comming up with a concept car.

Last edited by Cryos; 18 Nov 2004 at 17:05.
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 17:06 (Ref:1157187)   #8
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Only joking rxie, thought you had a good sense of humour.
Very detailed answer, interesting reading.
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 17:24 (Ref:1157203)   #9
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Only joking rxie, thought you had a good sense of humour.
Very detailed answer, interesting reading.
My humour has worn thin on 10/10ths.
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 17:36 (Ref:1157215)   #10
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Rixe its just that I didn't mean a complete overhaul off the rules, just what would be competitive in the class as it stands at the moment.
I will be very interested to see the polo when it arrives and your right the torque in the new diesels should be Ideal for Rallycross.

Twiglet the only thing I dislike is some of these new girlie colours luminous Pinks and yellows . Mind you anything would look good on a car that nice. Just like Kylie's Bottom which IMO looks good in anything.

Although the Rothmans Colour Scheme would do the job I think.
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Old 18 Nov 2004, 20:07 (Ref:1157361)   #11
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Actually a diesel class or 2 would be interesting, picture the scene, a group of TDi VW Caddy's arriving in the paddock at Mondello and offloading the spares then a quick change of rims/tyres and a tweak of the suspension before scrutiny, take part in the races and if all goes well load up at the end of the day and drive home.

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Old 18 Nov 2004, 21:07 (Ref:1157413)   #12
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Rixe its just that I didn't mean a complete overhaul off the rules, just what would be competitive in the class as it stands at the moment.
I will be very interested to see the polo when it arrives and your right the torque in the new diesels should be Ideal for Rallycross.
as it stands in ireland and europe you can race diesels, just in the uk you cant. The rules state on fia.com . as it stands i can enter 2 classes in ireland, supercar because of the turbo aspiration, or modified with penalties

@peespeed

The VW cup in the uk has a couple of current model tdi caddys in it

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Old 19 Nov 2004, 09:54 (Ref:1157855)   #13
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Rixe what are the penalties for a turbo car in modified class. GolfVanMan your TT Is turbo charged Isn't It ???

What I was really thinking was that if the top stock hatch guys. Would something like a STD 206 180 or a Civic type R (Did someone say Grant Rees was doing this?) with instant power be the way to go instead of the traditional route of space frame etc.
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Old 19 Nov 2004, 10:11 (Ref:1157875)   #14
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Originally posted by Roundy Mooney
What I was really thinking was that if the top stock hatch guys. Would something like a STD 206 180 or a Civic type R (Did someone say Grant Rees was doing this?) with instant power be the way to go instead of the traditional route of space frame etc.
Grant Rees is building a Civic Type R (not sure but I think it's modified not super modified). I think for a competitive super modified car you've pretty much got to go for a spaceframe - the front running super modifieds have something like 400bhp per tonne, if you're running a steel shelled car you're going to have to have a serious engine to get the required power (then you've got the problem of how to get the power down )

I'm sure one of the super modified minis is running a honda vtec engine - maybe that's the way to go, get a small spaceframe car and stick in an engine that generates a lot of power as standard, minimal tweaks should provide plenty of punch. Spaceframe Seicento with a cosworth turbo anybody???
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Old 19 Nov 2004, 10:26 (Ref:1157887)   #15
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Binks mini is a duratec isn't it ?

Wouldn't like to be in the little fiat if she started rolling it would probabaly travel further than a ping pong ball shot out of a catapult
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Old 19 Nov 2004, 12:42 (Ref:1158020)   #16
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I think someone was looking down the motorcycle engine route a couple of years ago.
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Old 19 Nov 2004, 14:34 (Ref:1158175)   #17
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@RM

The irish rallycross commette didnt tell me what penalties as they practicaly laughed at us when we announced what we were doing, but it would probably be a hefty time penalty.
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Old 19 Nov 2004, 15:15 (Ref:1158232)   #18
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I didn't think there was a problem running turbos in modified / supermodified? I thought the restriction for super modified was essentially as long as it's 2WD and retains the original engine location and bulkhead you can do what you like? I'm sure Collards sierra was turbo'd and I'm pretty sure Harbours Escort runs a turbo?

I thought the only thing with turbos was there was a multiplier on engine capacity so a 1.3 with a turbo equated to a 2.0 normally aspirated (only an example - I don't know what the actual conversion figures are). The latest generation diesel engines have a serious amount of torque, not sure what the power to weight ratio is like but I guess it's not too bad now.
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Old 19 Nov 2004, 15:34 (Ref:1158257)   #19
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The conversion in the green book is 1.7 ie a 1300cc turbo car would be classified as a 2210cc normally asspirated. For example The Mazda rotary engined MK2 escorts run in class 13 over 2 litre.

Rixe your 1.9tdi would work out at 3.2 litre that is only a problem with which class you would be in the irish championchip. I think it would put you in with george tohill in the bmw.

But it would not stop you winning modified overall.

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Old 19 Nov 2004, 17:13 (Ref:1158376)   #20
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james guest is the vtec mini using the 1600 i believe
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Old 19 Nov 2004, 19:03 (Ref:1158515)   #21
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modified is upto 2.5 as far as i know, ah sure ye know how they work over here rm
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Old 19 Nov 2004, 23:39 (Ref:1158832)   #22
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on the subject of turbo's, i think the addition of a 2wd class that was specifically for turbo cars could be certainly a way forward.



Naturaly youd have to put on some form of bhp limit as you wouldnt want lads comming in in RWD Skyline GT-S with 600bhp against some lad in his Nissan Pulsar GT-R or VW Golf GTi ??



how does that grab ya ?

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Old 20 Nov 2004, 10:20 (Ref:1159096)   #23
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Before selling it Terry Moore was going to put a Motorbike engine in his Mini.
Now his 2.3 Duratec Puma is well on its way.
If i was up for building a supermodified, Ive always thought about shoehorning a MI16 in the front of a 106gti shell, would this work?
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Old 20 Nov 2004, 10:39 (Ref:1159109)   #24
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I think I'd just go for a Hummer!
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Old 20 Nov 2004, 12:30 (Ref:1159176)   #25
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@Minicross 424

405 Mi16 ? 2.0 16v lump now yer talking!

*ponders to self, i have a 405 mi16 engine, and a 106 shell :P *
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