The State of The F1 Forum

[Dutton]

I have many thoughts on this matter, but I will not go on about them at the moment. I think my concerns could be extended to other parts of ten-tenths, but that is not really relevant. I have been here since October 2002 (I mean ten-tenths and the F1 forum both, by definition). The standard of discussion/debate, since then, has, IMHO, deteroriated significantly.

I hope the issues will be dealt with, and that the solutions can be of use to the rest of the site.

Please, I beg, put aside all the essentially unimportant partisanship. I recall, in years gone by, this place being an actively interesting place of discussion. Alas, in recent times, this aspect has not been so true (this is tremendously sad to me).

The sportscar forum is doing OK, but it seems to be starting to following the path of some years back of the F1 forum. This worries me.

I am just concerned about Ten-Tenths.

***********

RATIONAL DISCUSSION PLEASE.

FOR THE LOVE OF WHATEVER THE CRAP YOU THINK MATTERS - LET US CONSIDER THE SURVIVAL OF THIS WONDERFUL SITE.

[OZ_HCR32]

Frankly I have not been a member of Ten-Tenths for all that long. But since i first started following F1 in 1991 (15yr old) i feel the quality of journalism has dropped. Part of that has been the rise of the internet and the growth of too much speculation.

The fun is in reading the thoughts and opinions of others...Remembering to say what you mean, mean what you say and dont be mean saying it...then exploring the respective merits of the argument....That leads to interesting debate...

Thats half of it. The other half is interesting topics. Its off season so most of the chitter chatter is going to be pretty stale.

But i think most of it comes down to people forgetting about being right or wrong, but being open minded and respecting the opinions and thoughts of others. Generally TT is very good in this regard. I have changed my point of view on several things after reading the posts of others. But all too often people are more interested in being right and imposing their opinion on people...getting back to healthy discussion, well that will never happen if this trend gets a hold

[Marbot]

We could cut 95% of all the bad feeling out if the FIA would just ban drivers.

[Super Hans]

I understand your concerns, but the F1 forum on Tenths is still the most level-headed F1 forum I've come across.

[Marbot]

It is by far the best 'moderated' forum/site that I use.Credit to all involved with that side of things.

[Satorian]

What are actually the main points of criticism here? People don't attack each other personally here, use proper grammar and spelling, and usually also follow up on replies and inquiries.

What are the issues that need to be dealt with?

[chunder]

Some people just seem to complain about anything!!

It cant be that bad if someone has posted over 5000 times

I dont go on F1 too much becasue opinion is pretty much disallowed, but now and then something is worth posting on

[Bononi]

Well, here's my opinion on this. I understand Dutton's concerns mostly comes due to his past experience in the forum. Indeed the quality of the threads had lowered from previous years. Many of the past members don't post anymore and the posters were from many parts of the world than it seems to happen today. Quality is still much better by average rate comparing to most forums in the internet but the quality threads and poster had dropped over the years.
The point is that none of this can really be solved by simply bringing it up an discussing it to find a solution. There's a sticky thread about that most of the members never really cared to read.
About quality threads... What we have mostly is the bashing one and the news one. The others are hijacked into criticism (see "Hamilton honoured") or straight fight between two or more opinions, each one bashing the other. The problem : most members pro and against start the bickering and the subject vanishes through several pages. Solution ? If you don't like it and understand that it's trolling, bashing, libel or offensive, don't post in the thread, don't attack the subject, it will die by itself or call out a mod to observe and/or take action, you can do it.
But there are many quality threads still, "How can F1 secure itself...", "Honda's selling...", "F1 2009 car..." and others. You can have some bickering inside but it's easily put aside when people have a good subject.
About quality posters... That's a hard one. Any of the veterans knows what I'm talking about. Many start here with an aggresive approach, a clear sign of what side they are - like we needed to divide people - and what they don't like more than what they really like. Those ones are so easy to spot that they should have a proper title below their nicknames. Most of them don't stay long. The main problem is those who stay around which their goal is anything but to contribute. they start threads aiming to bring controversy among the members rather than talk about something we all like. If you gather your friends to drink something and have a nice chat, you wouldn't want them to raise subjects that will end up leaving everybody angry and wanting to leave the party, I'm sure of that. Solution ? Maybe we should just watch ourselves more closely, think before posting, reading carefully and take the other's point of view as your own to see if you would be offended with what you would reply. It's better be the one who seeks peace than the bringer of a war. Just my opinion, folks, in general I already expressed my feelings in the "Merry christmas thread".

[Leighton Irwin]

I haven't been on the Forum for long but it is the most polite one I know. It is the only one where I use my real name. That is not a knock at anyone.
I may not have been on the Forum that long but I have been around Motor racing since 1952 and have been involved in almost every aspect from spectating, driving, officiating, crewing, fabricating, team mgr., PR and designing. In 52 in Canada I would get F1 results 3 months after the race!
I also have a bit of a strange sense of humour and I can get carried away although I try to keep that to 'Parc Ferme'.
I find I am posting less and less here due to lack of interest in most topics. I am too jaundiced to bother with most of the speculation. I lost my last 'hero' when Gilles died. I knew him quite well as I was an Atlantic mechanic during his Atlantic days.
I like the technical aspect of all racing, although F1 is getting beyond me. I do try and comprehend it. Our wind tunnel was looking at oil flow over the body or tufts of string. A pyrometer for tire temp. was high tech. Data aquisition was eyeball or timing through a specific area after a change.
The FIA/BE constant rule changes and bickering are turning me off along with what I consider the dumbing down of F1. The questionable actions of the stewards also upsets me. (I was one of those too, but not F1.)
I get totally turned off with many of the discussions about what a driver should or should not have done in 90% of the incidents. I am probably going to upset some people now. In my opinion (note opinion) unless you have raced you do not have clue about what happens. A racing driver does not have time to analyse all the options in a split second. He reacts to the situation on instinct. Sometimes he is right. Sometimes he is wrong. The arm chair driver studying camera angles and slo mo replays has time to sit back and analyse. Please do not get vehment on an opinion of an incident especially if you have never raced. You really have no comprehension of what it is like out there. I raced for nine years, some professionaly, and I may say that was a dumb --- move but I can usually see where the driver was coming from. The old adage was 'If you see a hole stick your nose in it'.
Rant over.
I will continue to follow this section and will post if I feel I can add to it from an ol f--ts perspective.
Otherwise I will continue to have fun in Parc Ferme about snow, food and booze.

[JeremySmith]

Thank you Leighton for such an insightful post..

[Armco Bender]

Otherwise I will continue to have fun in Parc Ferme about snow,sheep, food and booze

Totally agree.....who gives a large rats bottom about F1 these days....

[Leighton Irwin]

Armco: You slipped a pretty wooly word in there!
I must tell my Australian relatives about you.

[Teretonga]

Agree Leighton.

As far as this thread topic is concerned the quality of the posting is perhaps a reflection of the current state of F1.

In the eyes of many of the veteran observers of the sport it is not what it once was, appealing more and more to 'mass' audience whereas once it was the domain of 'enthusiasts' (note the inverted commas
As far as your comments about driving experience go I totally agree.

Sitting behind the wheel it is a whole lot different, instinctive rather than analytical, and no, 300 laps at Spa on a Playstation does not count as driving experience....

[Born Racer]

I have read many of the older threads of the earliest years here, and there were a lot of discussions on drivers then with people unfairly hammering drivers and some somewhat (for want of a beter word) juvenile discussions.

This is not to say that Dutton is not entitled to state what he thinks though about the forum, but I would like to know what he means by rational discussion.

[Marbot]

One mans "rational discussion" is another mans 'march through the streets',but I think that we should all know where to draw the line.

[JamesH]

Just my opinion, but I actually think that some threads are over moderated. There have been quite a few that I thought had mileage, was about to post to, when I realised that they had been closed. Which is annoying. Note, these are not threads about driver bashing etc, which are fair game for the moderators AFAIAC

But, that is to be expected - you have to draw a line somewhere, and you cannot satify all the people all of the time.

And I agree with Irwin! I do find it almost laughable when people are commenting on what a driver should have done etc, when they come from a point of no experience behind the wheel at all. Although I guess the same happens in so many other sports...but then I don't feel the need to tell football managers need to do.....

[chunder]

I have no problem with people commenting on driver ability.

Just because I am not a F1 veteran I dont feel that disqualifies me from comment.

If one is not allowed to comment on driving unles you have driven an F1 car then...

Its discussion and talking about drivers is always likely to provoke flag to mast debate, nowt wrong with that!

[Born Racer]

I agree that the occasional thread is over-moderated. This is the case when there is a thread with potential for interesting discussion, but in which someone is for example slating a driver with no constructive criticism. It would be better in my view if such individual posters were dealt with rather than to close the thread.

We obviously don't want the forum littered with threads with a predominant attitude of unconstructive comments, but if the thread has an interesting point of discussion, it would be good to keep it open for the majority of members who bring much to the table.

[Taprobane]

I don't agree that you must have experience racing to comment on a drivers actions. The other sport that I follow closely is cricket and I and many others will criticise for example a batsman for getting bowled out by a ball going 90mph without ever having been in that situation ourselves, it's the nature of being a sports fan.

[Super Hans]

My two rules for harmonius forum use are:

1) Don't take things too seriously
2) Don't take yourself too seriously

[Raven]

Originally Posted by Taprobane

I don't agree that you must have experience racing to comment on a drivers actions. The other sport that I follow closely is cricket and I and many others will criticise for example a batsman for getting bowled out by a ball going 90mph without ever having been in that situation ourselves, it's the nature of being a sports fan.

An opinion is one thing, but I think people are referring to the amount of aggressive vitriol that, in many people's book, often over-steps the mark of cival discussion/debate.

[Leighton Irwin]

Just a small point. I do not think any poster was saying you needed F1 experience to comment on 'on track incidents'. I know I wasn't. I still feel some racing experience is required to fully understand what happens. Any form of motor racing gives you a different viewpoint.
I spectated for years (too young to do anything else) and then marshalled before I drove. (Too broke.)
It only took a couple of races before I had a very different viewpoint about on track incidents. And that was in a slow MGA.
I later raced much faster cars and raced pro but certainly not F1. My attitude towards 'incidents' changed in the 'A' era and has remained the same.
If you disagree with me and others who have raced and hold my views, fine, that is your perogative.
That is what forums are all about.
Just remember the old racing adage 'If you see a hole, stick your nose in it.' does not apply on public roads!

[SALEEN S7R]

For me the F1 forum and ten-tenths as a whole has gone downhill slightly over the last couple of years thanks to a number of things. It is not my place to decide who is on the moderating or Admin team, but I personally feel things were better a couple of years ago when Craig and Redshoes ran ten-tenths and when the old moderators were present such as Fab, Aysedasi and Redshoes. I realise some of the above have returned but honestly they dont participate on ten-tenths half as much as they used to and some of the moderators that have replaced them and others dont seem to me to share the passion for the sport that they did. Another thing which I personally dont see the need for was the introduction of reputation points which has in turn effectively turned things into something of a popularity contest. I dont know if it is just me, but it seems to me that the current owners of ten-tenths dont get involved as much with the forum and involved with threads in the racing forums, this has for me detracted from what ten-tenths was a couple of years ago. That was something both Craig and Redshoes never did, it was pretty common to see Redshoes or Craig in one of the various motorsport forums here on ten-tenths and getting involved. That doesent seem to happen with the current owners. IMO.

All that said, ten-tenths is still easily the best motorsport forum that I know of and im glad to be part of it.

[Steevp]

I always think of this as the best moderated forum I frequent.

But I think it's common for any long time member of a forum to resent change, there's a "golden" period when a forum is gaining momentum, and you seem to know all the members, then critical mass is reached, older members leave, the forum seems to have a different vibe, and it's like watching something you feel you have ownership of evaporate and there's nothing you can do about it.

I've seen it happen to a couple of places I helped start. The conclusion I've come to is that everything changes and there's not a lot you can do about it!

But this place, as I said before, is among the best.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

It is not my place to decide who is on the moderating or Admin team, but I personally feel things were better a couple of years ago when Craig and Redshoes ran ten-tenths and when the old moderators were present such as Fab, Aysedasi and Redshoes.

Fab is the only one that doesn't post now.

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I realise some of the above have returned but honestly they dont participate on ten-tenths half as much as they used to and some of the moderators that have replaced them and others dont seem to me to share the passion for the sport that they did.

Well, let's see.

I assume you are talking of the general staff here, because none of those you mention were or are F1 mods.

Adam races cars, Bert Mk2 is a marshal and a Rally Navigator, Stephen Green has no passion for the sport obviously, Magnet0n and EP are both marshals (more on them later), Chezza not only organizes a championship, she's a marshal too, Cryos is a rallycross racer, Marcus is a karter, and indeed so is Ghinzani, Bella is so deeply involved in F3 it's difficult to convince her that there is life outside of it.

Then who else is there?

I know of very few people who are more enthusiatic about their chosen category than Ayse or Adam. John Turner is one of the most helpful moderators on any site and indeed possibly the most hard working of all of us.

We have a historic forum where (believe it or not) the major players in the category either read it or contribute regularly. I know of no other forum that has an active chassis history archive (open to anyone who may be passionate about the sport), or just those who want to know about anything from pre war Astons/Bentleys to the DBR9.

Let's check out some of our other staff members then.

Me? I know nothing about the sport, I don't race cars and never been to a race, so I don't count.

RG, Bon, Jeremy and SH all know more than they let on, they are true enthusiasts.

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Another thing which I personally dont see the need for was the introduction of reputation points which has in turn effectively turned things into something of a popularity contest.

I can see your problem, perhaps only you can't?

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

I dont know if it is just me, but it seems to me that the current owners of ten-tenths dont get involved as much with the forum and involved with threads in the racing forums,

This is a view shared by Motors TV who is now partnered with this forum (That's 10/10s by the way).

Also I can't equate lack of enthusiasm for the sport when the owners are sponsoring the Irish Rallycross Stock Hatch Championship. Your idea of involvement is clearly on a different level to mine or indeed many people.

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

this has for me detracted from what ten-tenths was a couple of years ago. That was something both Craig and Redshoes never did, it was pretty common to see Redshoes or Craig in one of the various motorsport forums here on ten-tenths and getting involved. That doesent seem to happen with the current owners. IMO.

Huh?

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

All that said, ten-tenths is still easily the best motorsport forum that I know of and im glad to be part of it.

So why go into all the crap above?

For anyone reading this, SALEEN has received the weight of my anger. If you have a complaint to make use the proper channels.

Happy New Year. Thread closed.