LMES entry list, including Oreca Dallaras news ( merged threads)

[JAG]

Manufactuers will race were they will get the best media/promotion.

FIA GT has done very well in this regard with the SRW events.

The LMES, hopefully, will do the same for LMPs.

I am not fussed if the top class is LMP1 or GT1, they are basically the same thing anyway.

Remember one year the Toyota GT-One was a GT1, the next an LMGTP.

GTS Supercars will never be as fast as even an average privateer LMP1.

The only way GTS 'Supercars' will match LMP1 is if the GTS regs change, giving them more power and less weight. If/When this happens they will effectively become LMGTPs anyway.

Ratel says LMPs should always have a place, even in the event of a new GT1 class competing for overall wins.

BTW, if anything I believe 2004 will be the best year for protoypes in Europe since Group C. True they are not 2004 spec cars, but the Lister, DBAs etc., are all updated cars.

Regardless LMES and FIA GT can work in co-ordination, providing different options for the teams.

[jhansen]

JAG...couldn't agree more. There is no difference between the top GT1 cars and what a GTP is, such as the Bentley Speed 8. This year will be outstanding for LMP1, especially at Sebring, Le Mans and the LMES.

[SALEEN S7R]

Outstanding for LMP 1? Yeah, ok. Lets see, Maybe 4 Audi's 2 Dome's, 2 Courages, 2 Riley and Scotts, 1 Lister LMP, and thats being optimistic. Face it guys, at the moment the LMP 900/LMP 1 class is in the worst state it has been in for a few years now. This years LM, along with Sebring and PLM will be quite weak on the LMP 1/900 front, in fact weak on all the LMP fronts. Sure GTS and GT will be very strong, as always but the LMP grids will suffer.

Personally I think the only sportscar race that will improve is the Spa 24hrs. We will probably have Factory Maserati's, and perhaps Factory TVR's and Morgans, as well as the Factory Lister team of course, FIA GT is going to grow this year, despite the new LMES.

Jhansen, I dont dislike LMP cars, and maybe Im just pesimstic, who knows. But please tell me, why will this years LM 24hrs and Sebring 12hrs be "outstanding"? If u mean that the racing should be more unpredictable then I agree, but on the strength and depth side of things for the LMP 1/900 grids for Sebring and LM should be weaker than in recent years. Or have I missed something?

[RM40]

Well, you left out the MGs, DBAs, and all the LMP2s that will come out along with the LMP1 (specifically the former 900 cars) you mentioned. And what about Pescarlo? He should have 1 car at Le Mans.

[jhansen]

If you define strength and depth in factory backed teams, then yes. But I do not feel that this is the only criteria for strength of field. There is nothing wrong with privateer teams. Prodrove and Veloqx are fine examples of privateer teams in the GTS class. I wouldn't call Lister a factory team, not when you compare it to what Audi did in 1999 through 2002. Panoz is another example. The quality of racing will be very high this year, especially at Sebring, Le Mans and LMES. We will see some great privateer battles this year. And why not be excited about that? Factory backed teams come and go. And some fantastic cars, such as the Ferrari 333SP were never factory backed.

Let me just ask you this Saleen. How would you have sportscar racing organized in terms of GT, GTS and whatever you would place at the top if anything? I'm genuinely curious.

[SALEEN S7R]

Yeah ok, I missed a few out. But look at the prospects for Sebring. Personally I cant see Creation entering their cars for the Sebring 12hrs, nor do I see team Jota entering their car, will RFH turn up? Dont think so, they havent done recently, neither have Pescarolo, Sebring may have a Couple of Audi's, a Lister LMP, a Couple of Riley and Scotts and a couple of MG's, but what else is actually confirmed? Le Mans is looking stronger I agree, but again, compared to recent years its looking weak on the LMP side of things.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally posted by jhansen


Let me just ask you this Saleen. How would you have sportscar racing organized in terms of GT, GTS and whatever you would place at the top if anything? I'm genuinely curious.

What I would do? Basically keep things the way that they are for now, but Id change a couple of things in the GTS class. Id take the minimum weight down to 1000kg, instead of 1100kg, therefore taking the performance of the cars closer to that of the LMP 1 class cars, id also allow GTS cars 16 inch tyres, again closing the performance gap to the LMP 1 class. These changes would see the GTS class cars competing with mid level LMP 1 machinery without any real additional cost. This would hopefully allow for GTS class cars to have a shot at overall wins, albeit the favour would still be in the hands of the LMP 1 class cars, but it would make things intresting.

Id also make the same changes for GT, therefore bringing them closer to the performance of LMP 2 and allowing them to compete with one anoher, I like to see classess racing against one another, I think its great watching the Prodrive Ferrari 550s race against the LMP 675 class machinery, not just being lapped by them, anyone remember the GT fight in LM 2003? The lead cars were faster than some of the LMP 675 machinery, was great to watch how the LMP's swooped on them in the twisties but how the GT cars clawed them back in on the straights.

[jhansen]

Thanks for sharing your view Saleen. An interesting concept. But I still say LMP1 has a lot of potential this year and will provide for some great racing. And thanks RM40, you're right, there will be several Lola EX257's and a couple of DBA's as well. The only place I could see your point as being a weaker field will be in the ALMS after Sebring. We definitely need to see some growth here in the States. That goes for GTS as well.

[JAG]

Frankly the ALMS in both LMP and GTS is not looking much cop, if things do not improve dramitically.

So no advantage for GTS there.

As for Europe, FIA GT has one works team, Masarati, and a number of customers using factory built cars.

In the LMES you have factory built cars from Audi UK, Goh, Lister, MG, DBA etc. with backing from the manufactuers with a number of true privateers as well.

As I've said LMP, in Europe, is the strongest for many a year. True there are no works teams, but at last teams are coming into LMPs, such as Lister, Veloqux, Creation, Rollcentre etc.

The next step, as in, FIA GTs is for the manufatuers to build and sell customer cars.

Now, these could be in the form of Super GTs, lets call them GT1, LMPs or much more likely a mixture.

The ACO and Ratel have both stated that LMPs will always have a place at LM/LMES. Otherwise the likes of Lola, Courage etc. would be driven away.

If and when the GT1s arrive, they will be just as expensive as the LMPs, more so infact when you add the road car costs into the equation.

Therefore low cost is not a factor that GT1 has in its favour.

It seems quite obvious to me that evevtually the likes of the Masarati will be syphoned off into GT1, (such as a sub division of LMGTP), while the 'regular' GTS cars will stay as they are.

The GT1s will then compete for overall wins WITH LMP1s.

This asside, it does not change the fact that LMES and FIA GT are two very different series, catering to the different needs of teams.

IMO, a short series of high profile 1000K events, run to LM rules will always be seen as the pinnacle of sportscar racing, in its traditional form, which most European teams will want to race in, at least a couple of times a season.

FIA GT, as I have said is a sprint championship that complements the long distance LMES races perfectly.

[SALEEN S7R]

Personally Jag I woudnt say a 3hr race is a sprint race, to me sprint races are races that are 1hr long not 3 hours. Things like, DTM, ETCC, British GT, F3000, F3, BTCC, those are sprint races. FIA GT races arent sprint races. Sure they are shorter than the 1000KM events, but theres not really any differnce, in 1000km events the teams will still be going flat out all the time, just like they do in the FIA GT 500km events, as well as LM.

The LMES and FIA GT series will compliment "one another" not FIA GT complimenting the LMES. I wonder what TV package the LMES has lined up? As far as Im aware there isnt one as of yet, Eurosport are committed to the LG SRW it would appear, says something about the LMES. The LMES has serious potential in the short run yes, but unless new LMP cars are made its long term future dosent look so bright. But thats just looking on the LMP front, look at the GT/NGT grids, they will be filled mainly by teams from the FFSA, British GT and Belcar championships, people who arent quite good enough to enter FIA GT, or who dont have the money, of course u may have 1 or 2 teams switching back and forth from FIA GT to the LMES, but on the whole the GT/NGT teams in the LMES will be the smaller teams it would appear.

[Fieldgate]

The LMP1 class will be very subscribed this year (in Europe), LMP2 may well be a bit patchy.

I'm not sure why we need to get down and worship at the alter of TV - we watch it because we're enthusiasts, I'm not sure it will necessarily attract a whole bunch of new viewers (whatever someone trying to weedle money out of you may say).

Personally, I believe we may have seen the top of the curve for FIA-GT, it's become too large a series and too expensive. I think we may well see a slightly larger LMES (hopefully) but it will always include proto's.

In terms of costs, it will become cheaper for a privateer team to run an LMP2 (and maybe 1) than a GTS car - even current cars (575's etc) - and small boys will always go goggle eyed at a sports prototype.

As a global 'best' - the best Sportscar series already exists - it's just that its a hybrid (THE word for 2004). It consists of Sebring, LeMans, LMES & Petit LeM.

Pretty much the ACO's view, as of yesterday, as well and hopefully we'll be at them all with 1 or 2 cars.

[Fab]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
The worst thing the ACO could do would be to schedule too many events and thus not get a good launch on the series....

Daniel Poissenot already answered this question : never more than 6 events in a year (he says that 9 is much too much).

[Fab]

Do you think there will be a international championship one day (3 continents visited) ?

FIA-GT should be the next (it's already close to)...

But could you imagine an ALMS-LMES one ?

Open question...

[paul-collins]

Absolutely. Within 3 years there will be a WLM Championship.

[SALEEN S7R]

You know what I think would be fantastic? The FIA GT series turning into a "World championship" and for the LMES and FIA GT series to work together, imagine that when the LMES races its 4 rounds that the FIA GT series races at the same track on the same weekend, whilst still keeping largeley its own calender, it would just so happen that the FIA GT series and LMES would benefit from this, as would the fans. Will this ever happen though? Would be great to have the 4 LMES races racing alongside the FIA GT championship for the 4 rounds of the LMES. Imagine the Spa 1000KM's, on the same weekend as the Spa 24hrs! Would be a great package, possibly the best combination in the world of motorsports.

[Cadete]

the only problem i see there is that some teams may want to drive in both championships and it would be too much to drive the 1000km and then 24h in the same weekend

[SALEEN S7R]

I dont think so, if the events are run on differnt days that is. In FIA GT the drivers normally only race for 90 minutes each, given a good nights sleep they should be more than ready to race again, and of course theres always the option of a 4th driver, either professional or a paying driver. Always plenty of Gentleman drivers wanting to race in the Spa 24hrs. It would also go a big way to help cutting the costs of teams who want to run in both championships.

[Tim Northcutt]

We've covered the "World Championship" thing before....

Unless there is a global transporter who will do it as part of a big Title Sponsorship, I don't see it happening, and I don't see it as being good for sportscar racing...

Why?

Teams like RfH and Pescarolo, to name just two of many, don't come to Sebring or Petit now because they don't have the $$$$....

A World Championship drives up the budget costs dramtically for international transport, duties & customs, housing, etc., that many current competiors cannot afford....

Now if they want to do the ALMS, the LMES and then host a big "All-Star Event" with the End-of-Season "Top 5" in each Class from each series for a 1000km race....that makes more monetary sense to me than trying to do one series and expect your competitors to travel the globe a few times each year....

get the transporter to sponsor the "All-Star Event"....they ae more likey to bite into that, plus help with le Mans transport, than to do a full season of hauling dozens of teams around on their dime...


At least my appraoch is realistic....it also is better for sportscar racing as a whole, and for the fans who can afford to see more races a year if they have ALMS events to go to, or LMES events to go to, that are closer to home... but could see far less if it becomes a "global" thing with only a couple of races here, a couple in Europe, etc...

[Fab]

I get you point Saleen, and I follow you on this schedule, but I've the same fear as cadete : two races for the same team in the same week-end seems too expensive, and even hard to cope with, as the races are very demanding in FIA-GT. What if the car get the checkered flag almost dead in the GT race ? No WSC race...

Well, what you're imagine is the LG Super racing Week-end, extended to sportscars : a great idea indeed !

[JAG]

The LMP issue is a red herring with regards to the success or not of the LMES.

Everything indicates the LMES will be a success so far.

The LMES is not an LMP series it is a LMP/GT series and therefore will obviously benefit from all of the manufactuers entering FIA GTs.

If GT1 becomes the joint top class with LMP (the ACO has said there will always be a top prototype class, as this is what LMs heritage is based on. Plus the likes of Lola, Courage ec still need to be catered for at LM), the LMES will benefit from these cars just as much as FIA GTs.

The success of the LMES is not reliant on the success of the LMP class, it will reflect the direction sportscar racing is taking, it will, IMO, be a success because it is returning to tru endurance racing at the Worls famous 'Sportscar' circuits.

Creation etc. are entering both the LMES and FIA GT because they offer the team different challenges.

I also think it is significant that Prodrive will be placing Colin McRae in its LMES squad rather than in FIA GTs.

As for TV deals etc. given them time. FIA GTs is well established, LMES is only just begining. However judging by the amount of LMES talk on message boards it is quite obvious sportscar fans are very excited about the series.

As I have said FIA GTs is a sprint series, compared to LM, Sebring, 1000K races etc. FIA GT may even move to 2 hour races for TV purposes.

[Fab]

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
We've covered the "World Championship" thing before....

Oops ! I forgot this one ! Sorry to re-open a debate...

Originally posted by Tim Northcutt
Unless there is a global transporter who will do it as part of a big Title Sponsorship, I don't see it happening, and I don't see it as being good for sportscar racing...

I think it could playable for Pesca and Courage, if the exposure is wide enough to attract serious sponsors.

[SALEEN S7R]

Fab, what I meant to say is have the 2 events on the same weekend, and those teams wishing to compete in the LMES from FIA GT could do so, sure it would be demanding on the drivers, but take along a 3rd pay driver and then the physical side of things is signifcantly decressed. Theres a few teams in FIA GT who are planning to compete in both FIA GT and LMES anyway, so really and truly I think this would help them, it would certainly help them financially because the FIA GT calender would be the same as the LMES events, and would still have its own seperate events to the LMES. I take your point with regards to a car could be destroyed in a FIA GT race and therefore not able to race in the LMES, but really and truly the chances of the car not being repairable in time for the following day are fairly slim.

What Ive suggested would save the teams who want to compete in the LMES from FIA GT a signifcant ammount of cash, and the teams from the LMES GTS/GT ranks could race in both series too.

Or u could simply have the LMES and FIA GT series race at the same venues on the same weekends, with none of the FIA GT teams racing in the LMES, and none of the LMES racing in the FIA GT series, would certainly get more fans in through the gates for the weekend, and who knows might even get a better TV package. The FIA GT race on the Saturday for example and the LMES on the Sunday, I dont know but they do the same kind of things with WSBK and Moto GP on Eurosport so I dont see why not. But if the teams in FIA GT stuck to FIA GT and the teams in LMES stuck to LMES there woudnt be any problem I dont think, apart from maybe space, but at places like Spa that woudnt be a issue.

[jhansen]

In my opinion it is much wiser to separate the two series in terms of race dates. If you run them concurently on the same weekend at the same venue I believe it takes away from both. I see what you're getting at in terms of trying to save a few teams some money Saleen. But I believe that the LMES is a big enough draw that the FIA GT teams that want to run it will run it regardless. The races are in Europe, so the travel costs are not excessive. Not only that, but I believe the LMES will offer some bids to Le Mans, which is a plus. Keep the two series separate and let them both shine for the merits they each have.

[Fab]

Originally posted by SALEEN S7R
Fab, what I meant to say is have the 2 events on the same weekend

A seducing perspective ! What we need now is a team manager point of view...

[Mal]

I believe that we will see the FIA GT 'supercar' class and the LMP1 class rolled into one with the same rules in a year or two. The Maserati to me seems as close to a LMP as it is to a traditional GTS. I hope Ratel and the ACO have formulated a plan with the manufacturers to bring it all together in the next few years