FIA homologated equipment

[carrera]

I read with interest the MSA Motor Sports Now latest edition with regard to "Specific Regulations for Car Racing".

FIA homologated harness required for 2006 (recommended for 2005) as "It is perceived that allowing the use of non-homologated harnesses is a lowering of the standards and not in accord with the accepted standards within the sport. That this is so has drawn adverse comment from other ASNs and is a situation that in legal terms may be difficult to justify".

Should the MSA stop at harnesses or should they bring in a requirement for UK racers to wear FIA approved kit?

[brickkicker]

Should the MSA stop at harnesses or should they bring in a requirement for UK racers to wear FIA approved kit?

Do you mean overalls ect? If thats what you mean then I agree, dont think proban overall as good enough.

[greenamex2]

After the BMW driver died at Thruxton I upgraded to a FIA spec seat, helmet and harnesses and replaced my Safety devices cage with a properly designed welded in cage.

If drivers aren't sensible enough to spend the extra couple of quid on something that may keep them intact or alive should the worst happen then the authorities should force the issue. And yes I do count myself as someone who has penny pinched at the potential expense of my own life.

As long as the changes really do contribute to safety then I am all for them.

[bodyrepairs]

I'm new to racing and am just planing the build of my first car. I looked at all the diffrent makes of cage, seat etc, and really to use all fia approved it's going to cost me £200 more than using non approved.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally posted by bodyrepairs
I'm new to racing and am just planing the build of my first car. I looked at all the diffrent makes of cage, seat etc, and really to use all fia approved it's going to cost me £200 more than using non approved.

How much will a fractured spine cost you?

Might sound like a rather blunt statement, but it's a simple fact. The introduction of safety equipment in motorsport and the enforcement of these standards over the past 20 years has drastically reduced the level of driver injury and created a situation where accidents that would have killed or maimed someone even 10 years ago are now not only survivable, but drivers can sometimes even walk away.

Basically what it comes down to is what is your life and your health worth to you?

[greenamex2]

bodyrepairs - I have been racing for over 15 years. Work a few weekends in MacDonalds if you have to but PLEASE try and buy the best you can. If nothing else you will feel safer and go faster as a result (psychologists call this risk compensation).

If nothing else there are few enough people racing at the moment and we can't afford to lose any more!

[simon drabble]

in the full scheme of things £200 is a no brainer. I have had fortunately few spills but each time I am very grateful for having the best safety equipment. same with helmets etc... David Bassem is right, the safer you feel the faster you will drive

[bodyrepairs]

sorry if i wasn't clear in what i meant. I was simply saying that for such a small sum it is not worth using lower grade equipment.

Should have re read my post before submitting it.

Must try harder next time.

[EvilPumpkin]

damn - and that was my best lecture voice too!

How dare you turn out to be sensible *sulk*

[ss_collins]

SSC in safety thread again (flak jacket and foxhole at the ready)

Don't just buy the bset you can afford - put a bit of thought into it. Safety wise its up to you what you feel comfortable with - get the best helmet you feel comfortable and sfae with - don't go over the top and buy a thousand pound F1 spec lid if you don't really need to. Overalls - triple later Nomex seems to be the order of the day - though I prefer Probans, however thier days are very numbered. Proper shoes and gloves will improve you driving (amazingly I find they actually do!), A decent roll cage is important - make sure you buy from a good well known manufacturer who specialise in Motorsport parts.

As for question like how much do you value your spine etc.. well if you were so hugely concerned about breaking you back perhaps you shouldn't get into that car - it must never ever be forgotten that this is a dangerous sport and always will be.

Fatalities are going to keep happening - its a tragic fact but a fact none the less - some safety measure may reduce them but the only way to stay totally safe is not to take part.

[Barny]

Agree with all your sentiments and have always bought the best I can afford. But why do the FIA/MSA increase the risks to us by insisting we use foam extinguishers in place of Halon, I have been told the foam doesn't "nock down the fire" and have been warned by a scruitineer that as the temperature drops it becomes even less effective at controling a fire.
I do undersatnd the enviromental issue but all the old extinguishers still contain halon which will eventualy be released in to the atmosphere anyway so they might as well be used to put out out a potentialy dangerous fire!

[scrutineer]

But why do the FIA/MSA increase the risks to us by insisting we use foam extinguishers in place of Halon

At the end of the day they are not allowed to be used anywere now apart from 'special applications' That and its not the best to breath in.

I would like to see items like probans taken out of use as they are not as good as nomex and also take out motorcycle helmets (BS standard) as these are not tested to the same standard as the motorracing type (SNELL 2000 etc)

[DaveK]

I would like to see items like probans taken out of use as they are not as good as nomex and also take out motorcycle helmets (BS standard) as these are not tested to the same standard as the motorracing type (SNELL 2000 etc) [/B][/QUOTE]


I would disagree to a point on this statement, Fine if you are talking about the polycarbonate/plastic moulded helmets, but remember that a Peltor Prorally/Pro carbon are all tested to bs6658-85 except they also have a fireproof lining.

Dave

[greenamex2]

Hand held fire extinguishers should get the chop ASAP. If I was a marshall I would run a campaign to that effect.

[brickkicker]

Hand held fire extinguishers should get the chop ASAP. If I was a marshall I would run a campaign to that effect.

Cant agree with that, I think both are no good as I have never seen either put a fire out, there is nothing stopping them having a plumbed in AFFF and a hand held powder. I know which one I would use if I was in a car on fire.

[scrutineer]

Fine if you are talking about the polycarbonate/plastic moulded helmets, but remember that a Peltor Prorally/Pro carbon are all tested to bs6658-85 except they also have a fireproof lining

Ok I agree that they have a flame retardant (not fire proof) lining however they are as far as I know only tested with a single impact test were as SNELL are tested with double impact. But are the BS standards going out soon? And another EU (or EC) standard coming in which as yet has not been accepted by the MSA.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by scrutineer
But are the BS standards going out soon? And another EU (or EC) standard coming in which as yet has not been accepted by the MSA.

BS6658 has been superseded by ECE 22-05, in addition to which all helmets used in motocycle sport must have ACU approval, which requires that they conform to 'additional criteria considered necessary for helmets used in motocycle sport' - an ACU-approved helmet must carry the appropriate sticker.

[midgetman]

Scrutineer said: a flame retardant (not fire proof)

ALL "fireproof" fabric used in motor sport is only flame retardant. It's self-extinguishing, not fireproof.

AFAIK ECE is not approved by MSA, which means only FIA helmets and a very few 6658 helmets available. The "cheap" option at motor bike shops is no more, and I expect 6658 will die soon, too. There aren't many of them around now, and nothing in "entry" level. But a base Snell model is about £150 and you get much better fit and quality for your money. Compared to the cost of the car, that's b*gg*r all isn't it?

[carrera]

Originally posted by brickkicker
Do you mean overalls ect? If thats what you mean then I agree, dont think proban overall as good enough.

I was referring to all types of kit, helmets, overalls, underwear, boots, etc and to any safety equipment eg rollcages, padding, seats, fire extinguishers etc.

[R59]

Originally posted by Barny
Agree with all your sentiments and have always bought the best I can afford. But why do the FIA/MSA increase the risks to us by insisting we use foam extinguishers in place of Halon, I have been told the foam doesn't "nock down the fire" and have been warned by a scruitineer that as the temperature drops it becomes even less effective at controling a fire.
I do undersatnd the enviromental issue but all the old extinguishers still contain halon which will eventualy be released in to the atmosphere anyway so they might as well be used to put out out a potentialy dangerous fire!

The nice thing about Halon is that it expels all oxygen, including that in your lungs = you can't breath. full stop. If they don't get to you quick enough after you fire your halon extinguisher while still strapped in, it could be goodnight vienna. Damn good fire (and life) extinguishant.

However, I cannot see why we are not using ABC powder, afterall, this is one of the requirements by HSE on all goods vehicles that carry hazchems, fuels, etc.. If you read the specs, AFFF is not recommended for use on fuel fires, and metal fires. Errrrmmmmm Race cars, fuel, magnesium parts... ABC however, will do the job.

I carried an ABC extinguisher in my car alongside the AFFF mandatory one. In the event of a fire, I could use AFFF, followed by ABC to cap it. However, the blue book does not permit it, and I could have been excluded for being safer than everyone else. (Let them fight that one in a civil court with HSE guidelines on my side!)

As for releasing the halons into the atmosphere, if disposed of by a specialist, then no, they won't be.

I honestly believe that ABC powder would be a more effective extinguishant for use in motorsport vehicles.

And it's a darned sight cheaper!

Rob.

[scrutineer]

I honestly believe that ABC powder would be a more effective extinguishant for use in motorsport vehicles.

Couldnt agree more. I have also said this in the past to the MSA and was told that it 'eats' into some metals in the engine bay which can creat problems in the future. In my opinion not putting the fire out is worse. Although to be honest they didnt convince me.

I would also think that the problem with powder is that it needs to be turned as the marshals will know and if it is plumbed in to the car you cant turn it so when you pull the leaver you wont get nothing coming out as it will just be a big solid lump at the bottom.

I carried an ABC extinguisher in my car alongside the AFFF mandatory one. In the event of a fire, I could use AFFF, followed by ABC to cap it. However, the blue book does not permit it, and I could have been excluded for being safer than everyone else

Dont know were you have had that from, there is nothing stopping you carrying both. As long as you have the AFFF in you can also carry a hand held powder and cannot be excluded for the reason you point out regarding the civil court. Only probelm is racers wont out the second bottle in as its extra cost and extra weight.

[Peter Mallett]

Interesting thread and for the record I know Carrera has all the FIA kit and so do I. Also my roll cage is Safety Devices built to the FIA homologated pattern.

As to a welded in cage. Some championship regulations don't allow you to do this. Indeed Appendix K prohibits it because the original cars never had them and it serves to stiffen the monocoque. I stand to be corrected here of course.

[1200Datto27]

With regards to the ABC powder, I would rather have an engine left for it to eat into, than a burnt to the ground car (but my engine wont be eaten). If you have a fire under the bonnet, surely you are going to have to replace most of the wiring and sensors anyhow, and most likely will pull the engine out to give it a good clean and check over, so there shouldn't be any issues with.

[Woolley]

Extinguishers as I understand them. Powder knocks the flame down very quickly, but ideally needs to be pointed at the base of the fire, would be fine in the engine compartment for a big fire. Foam puts it out slower, but cools the heat source and is more likely to keep it out, so a smaller under bonnet fire is dealt with fairly well.

Inside the car, Halon does, as said before, remove the oxygen and so is not good for the driver. Powder does the same in a different way, but is not as damaging. The big advantage of foam in this situation is its cooling properties. You don't aim for the base of the fire as it's set up to spray the driver. Regardless of what the fire is doing inside the car, the foam will be cooling him and preventing flames starting on him for his overalls will retard. By the time it's empty, there should be marshals there putting it out proerly, or else the driver has left by then anyway. I believe its the best medium to protect the most important bit of the racing car - the nut hoding the steering wheel.

Hope that's helpful.

[R59]

Thanks for that little gem Wooley.

Back to the ABC business, according to the 2004 blue book, you may not carry a dry powder (as in ABC) extinguisher in a race car.

I had this argument at Silverstone with a scrutineer. Though one of his associcates looked in and said "That's a good idea".

And as for ABC eating the metals, yep, that's far better than scrapping the whole lot because it's burnt out and mangled.

After spraying any engine bay with any extinguishant, I'd be steam cleaning it out, and then stripping the engine as a precaution. AFFF gums things up because it's residue attracts dirt from as far away as the planet zob, leaving an awful mess.

One of the cleverest systems I've ever seen, which may or may not be any good for racing, involved putting a pressurised system in the vehicle, with a plastic pipe forming a loop under the bonnet. When flames lick the pipe, it bursts where the flames are and squirts out the extinguishant in the area where the fire is. I believe it was based around the old BCF-Halon based stuff, but whether it'd be any good with ABC or even AFFF, I don't know. Anyone remember it?

Moving back to the thread... FIA spec stuff, thankfully my suit is OK, my hat is SNELL2000, but my harnesses are not FIA because they have a NASCAR type buckle. So it's a buying spree at the show.. seat, new harness, and I'm going down the route of a HANS too. OK, so it's going to cost me, but that's a lost less than costing me my livelihood or my life!

Rob.