Winter Rallycross

[rallycrosscraig]

Remember when Rallycross used to be big on TV and mud / rain / snow was a big part of it?

The sight of Mini's and Escorts stuggling up the hill at Lydden, cars covered in mud with windscreens barely able to see out of?

Who fancies some Winter Rallycross?

[Rod Birley]

The BARC south east made a thumping loss trying to revive this a few years ago. Not enough competitors or spectators, plus the cost of circuit hire and all the extras. Shame really, as there is not much else some circuits can be used for at this time of year.

[Gnomex]

As Rod says, "not enough spectators".

When I first started marshaling rallycross it was always in the winter. Although I have been involved for only 20 or so years, I remember the rallycross on TV from even earlier days - all those Mins plus those 4WD Capris. Oh, and don't forget the Dafs driven by the de Roy brothers!!

[BertMk2]

It's a shame the attempted revival didn't work out, the winter meetings at Lydden a couple of years ago were great fun to watch and as you say the sight of the cars sliding about covered in mud just made it all that much better. Entries were somewhat thin even with the stock hatch vs stock rod challenge thrown in so you can't expect the clubs to run the meetings and take the hit.

[Spectator]

As one of the ' not enough spectators ' I have to agree that there were not enough of us.
The phrase two men and a dog come to mind. Freezing cold but great entertainment.
I've seen more spectators for a test day than on the BARC winter rallycross events.
A great pity as it gave us saddos something to do on a winters day.
I remember the old black and white tv on a Saturday afternoon, those minis, escorts,capris and don't forget the imps. Holes drilled in the windscreen before the advent of the continuous water jet wiper sysyems.
Those were the days.

[chunder]

Shame really, i thought with the stock hatch boom a few yeares ago that even a small meeting would be able to make a decent amount of mney from this.
But i guess that the people who hire out the tracks dont care if it is winter or summer, it still costs the same to hire it out!
I remember when Sports Seen used to hsow these and you got all the big names from down there like Steve Palmer, sometimes Gollop, Richard Hutton, Barry Hathaway, Mavropolous et al all getting stuc in.
Best bit was thye used to just run into straight finals regardless of Class and I remember Hutton winning a load on the trot in his 6R4 once! Very entertaining

[leonidas]

It was a real shame the recent winter series failed. It may have been better to run one big event - a 'Winter Rallycross Festival' - say in early January - to drum up renewed interest first. I still think rallycross is missing a massive opportunity. There is no decent British motorsport in the winter months and a big gap in the market to promote rallycross in this very quiet period. Perhaps the BRDA should run an event on the car park at the Autosport show...!

We shouldn't assume no one watches outdoor sport in the winter. Thousands turn out to minor horse racing meetings at places like Leicester on Boxing day and new year.... if only to get away from the family, turkey and relentless shopping...

[Rod Birley]

There appears to be two fundamental problems. Firstly, rallycross has "become" a summer sport, which means a lot of drivers are involved in winter re-builds at this time of year. Secondly, the Autosport show has grabbed the supercars for their indoor displays and track action.
I agrre that there is precious little else going on in the motorsport world in the UK at this time of year, except for some of the oval promoters. They manage to get a lot of interest for their Boxing Day and New Years Day meetings. Earlier this year (in January to be precise) there was a big crowd at a freezing cold Arena Essex watching banger racing.

[chunder]

Rod, the big banger meetings attract huge crowds.
There are upwards of 10 thousna dgo to the biggest meetings of the year at Arena which is the Firecracker in November and the banger workd final at Wimledon.
They attract huge crowds and large amounts of travelling support to the big meetings. And why, coz the promoters put up big prize money for wins, best prepared car etc.
The racing is pretty average to be honest but at nearly any oval meeting at a decent track you will get a half decent crowd to be honest and at the biggest meetings the crowds can match anything other than BSB and BTCC

[EVO1X]

Why don,t RSS run there series in the winter time and Brda run in the summer or vice verso then there would no clash off dates and we would get rallycross all year round and the winter one may attract TV coverage as there is a shortage off motorsport on TV at this time off year

[Nittymaki]

Originally Posted by EVO1X

Why don,t RSS run there series in the winter time and Brda run in the summer or vice verso then there would no clash off dates and we would get rallycross all year round and the winter one may attract TV coverage as there is a shortage off motorsport on TV at this time off year

Cracking idea, but with winter rallycross you get no crowd and un-viable events, and with tv to pay for its never going to happen.

[leonidas]

Sadly I think RPL are missing a massive opportunity here. There is a clear gap in the market and a real chance to establish themselves as a innovative promoter. If you started with a single meeting 'Winter Rallycross Festival' and promoted it properly there is no doubt it would run. What else is the motorsport press going to cover this time of year? Where else are fans going to go?

If people knew it was definately going to run and be an annual event everyone would plan their car-building time accordingly...

Why not take advice from short oval promoters like Incarace/Spedeworth? They know how to put on a show! (I'm sure Northampton ran rallycross meetings many years ago, didn't it?) Or investigate the possibility of a joint promotion to share the risk?

[WJM]

The Belgian and in a way also the Dutch season start the first weekend of March. The Irish start in February. So a meeting in February on Lydden could have enough drivers with proper promotion and status. My guess is that the previous attempt of the winter series mostly failed because it had no status and no Division 1 cars to attract the crowds. Instead of winterbreak, it could be agreed to have a springbreak. Say no races between Easter and July, so drivers can rebuild their cars if they want.

[bucko]

[
Why not take advice from short oval promoters like Incarace/Spedeworth? They know how to put on a show! (I'm sure Northampton ran rallycross meetings many years ago, didn't it?) Or investigate the possibility of a joint promotion to share the risk?[/QUOTE]


was that brayfield oval i raced there at the one and only rallycross event held in the eve , the track was like a old telephone mouth and ear piece , i remember it ,as super cars spent all night knocking off there rear bumper's running around the armco , lot a fun that night but i do remember a lot off damage too , hence why it was scrapped .
could the mda hold a one off winter meet just to see the interest , maybe a winter mda series or 1 day winter championship !!!! given the mda a bit of limelight out of season ?

[Rod Birley]

Guys, these are all brilliant ideas, but the fundamental problem is the cost of putting any meeting on. Circuit hire, insurance, officials, timekeepers, recovery vehicles, doctors...it all adds up. We know it makes sense to have something rather than nothing but someone still has to pay. Unfortunately the venues are just too expensive, and the risks to a club are too great. Believe me, I tried to make the last February meeting (2004) work by phoning as many people as possible. The best response was from the stock hatch and stock rod people.

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by Rod Birley

We know it makes sense to have something rather than nothing but someone still has to pay. Unfortunately the venues are just too expensive, and the risks to a club are too great...

That's why I'd like to see a joint promotion - perhaps using the expertise of short oval promoters. The 'small club' structure of British motorsport makes it difficult to organise new ventures that have any element of risk. It would be good to see clubs and commercial promoters cooperating more to share that risk. Every successful business is in debt and you've often got to be prepared to lose a little money before you can start something worthwhile... and single clubs alone can't afford to do that.

[silver bullet]

There just aren't enough competitors in rallycross at the moment to run viable winter meetings. I think there needs to be at least 100 regular drivers plus another 100 occasional drivers competeing in the UK before any winter series will be a sucess.
I know short oval meetings are a great sucess but just think how many open wheeler, rod, saloon and banger drivers there are out there, there must be thousands.

[chunder]

Believe me bullet, three are hundreds of formulas too, far too many in most peoples view who like me watch short oval racing regularly.
But the thing there is that they are usually local formulas with a farily local driver roster, so some formulas would never work in some places and others thrive.
THe major classes are pretty much uniform, but even then in the open wheelers you have certain areas that do not race under the main banners.
you need very strong localised support for a track as used to be the case at Lydden and I spose Croft til George flogged it on, nowadays Croft is a serious race track and the costs reflect that, in the old days I guess Lydden and Croft were no where near as dear to hire comparatively to a Cadwell or a Donington. They probly still arent but too much to entertain very few speccies and a few drivers, praps why Blyton can run small meetings, not the same costs involved

[Rod Birley]

"Chunder" you have hit the nail on the head. For example if you want to run at Brands Hatch it will cost (in the region of) £25,000 per day. If you are lucky enough to get 80 entries you could probably charge £330 each, any less and it all goes up accordingly. The other problem is you do not get any gate money, unless there is an exceptionally large crowd and you have a written contract where you get a small percentage. In oval racing the promoter keeps all the gate money, so it is in his interest to promote the meeting.
All the clubs using long circuits are in the same dilema, relying on their income from competitors. With all the costs continually rising, it means that entry fees will also keep going up. Net result fewer competitors and so the spiral continues. Consider this: at this year's A1GP the GT support race drivers paid £1116 +VAT each for their entry fee (for two races of about 40 minutes). This was to race in front of a large crowd.

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by Rod Birley

"Chunder" you have hit the nail on the head. For example if you want to run at Brands Hatch it will cost (in the region of) £25,000 per day. If you are lucky enough to get 80 entries you could probably charge £330 each, any less and it all goes up accordingly. The other problem is you do not get any gate money...

Yes, you can forget Brands - but Blyton costs only a fraction of that and its very central with a lot of drivers living within 150 miles or so of the track. The economics then start to be more realistic. The gate money issue is the main problem in British circuit motorsport - the promoter has no incentive to market the meeting to spectators so it remains forever a 'minority' sport...

[chunder]

You are right Rob in that in most formulae on ovals the promoter keeps the gate, but in the bigger classes he has to pay the drivers. IN BriSCA F1 for instance, they all get 40 quid start money and their prize money is fixed aswell. But you still frequently get 1000 pound dash for cash races and big money finals.
Some of the smaller formulae like F2 and Saloons also get very minimal start money.
I think this was maybe Arthurs idea with the Red Lodge place, in that like Blyton it was fairly specialised and self sufficient, therefore not needing huge entry fees!
Am shocked at the fee you had to pay for Brands aswell Rob, thouhgt the fees were pretty well set in stone in lieu of the International status of the event.
imagine racing a Crossle at the GP support meeting or summat!
I think that rallycross has to look at what Supermoto biking is doing, they use a lof of kart tracks for their racing, therefore cutting entry costs.
I know trakcs like these are too tight for rallycross really, but somwhere like Three SIsters is pretty pro actiev and might be of interest!