2012 yr of the hybrid in LMP1 for WEC/LeMans?

[Canada ALMS fan]

So with the ACO regs announced regarding hybrids in P1, Toyota coming with a hybrid, Peugeot testing theirs, and Audi rumoured to be working on a new version of the R18 with some sort of energy recovery, could 2012 be a landmark year in P1? We could have 3 factories battling at Le Mans all with hybrids. And Porsche is waiting in the wings for 2014, will there be others? This is road-relevant technology so it has to appeal to the manufacturers. We could be on the dawn of a golden age in the top class at Le Mans again.
Is the ALMS really the leader in green racing seeing as none of these will be entries there other than WEC round(s)?
The big battle now in P1 moving forward, albeit still diesel vs petrol, could turn more into hybrid vs internal combustion only. This could be a game changer and surely (sadly as an Aston fan) Aston will be reconsidering the viability of a shoestring budget P1 effort. No diesel and no hybrid will make any effort mid pack at best. Imagine being a Rebellion or an Oak, unless regs change further you will need to have either a diesel and/or a hybrid system to be competitive. The factories won't be keen to lease these out so other routes will have to be taken - Hope Polevision, the Williams system, etc. Making it prohibitively expensive.
Why would anyone fund the Deltawing? Less weight, smaller engine, big deal. Isn't that what P2 used to be? That's not technology, that's efficiency. Garage 56 should be for new technologies IMO.
I think the future propulsion technologies are coming fast, next year even, and deserved a separate thread. The future may finally be here.

[kober]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Is the ALMS really the leader in green racing [cut] ?

Has it EVER been the leader?

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

The big battle now in P1 moving forward, albeit still diesel vs petrol, could turn more into hybrid vs internal combustion only.

The world championship battle (P1) will be hybrid A vs hybrid P vs hybrid T. The non-diesels/non-hybrids would only aspire to be treated as a separate, although unofficial, class. Or, on the contrary, the 2012 might be the last year that non-hybrids could have a shot at the overall victory, granted that the championship contenders won't be reliable enough to actually finish the races

[AGD]

Yeah, the word of the year in ACO racing next year is definitely going to be hybrid. There have been hybrids before, but none of them were ready for primetime. Looking beyond 2012, how will the ACO respond? I think Audi was right to question the ACO the other day. It seems that the ACO is confused as to whether it should be a wide open competition of technology or if it should be a BoP league (AKA "Bush league"). Right now they are trending toward the BoP side while maintaining a wide open facade. However, with more major factory teams coming in, the ACO may have no choice but to ignore/laugh off the privateer's complaints (which is a positive IMO). The next bigger issue is how the ACO deals with any potential gaps in performance between major factory teams. I don't think we can expect 3, 4, or 5 factories to run as close as Audi and Peugeot has. There may be existing controversies about fuel, but also about hybrid technologies. I'd like to see a hand off approach, but this is a potentially major issue the ACO will have to deal with.

Anyway, if you read that Audi link, perhaps Audi is still on the fence about hybrids for 2012. We'll see. There seem to be some issues with the rules that Audi is pointing out. I'm sure they're doing their calculations. Reliability is an issue as well. We know Toyota's intentions and Peugeot seems to be trending toward the Hybrid4. We'll see. I'm sure they're considering the same things that Audi is even if their hybrid technology is different from Audi's.

As for the Garage 56, I agree with you completely. As for the ALMS being the global green leader, well, that is just a slogan. A slogan that isn't so accurate. It'll still be greener compared to other non-ACO competition and the hybrids will show up at the combo ACO events (albeit maybe not in 2012 and who knows about Sebring and Petit's future within the WEC) so I guess the ALMS still has something to hang on to. Still, I would not make "green" be the main slogan for the ALMS unless they are referring to it being green compared to other American series.

[Canada ALMS fan]

Originally Posted by AGD

The next bigger issue is how the ACO deals with any potential gaps in performance between major factory teams. I don't think we can expect 3, 4, or 5 factories to run as close as Audi and Peugeot has. There may be existing controversies about fuel, but also about hybrid technologies. I'd like to see a hand off approach, but this is a potentially major issue the ACO will have to deal with.

Bingo, how they deal with this will likely dictate how many manufacturers come out to play. Porsche certainly has some assurances to commit so strongly so far in advance IMO. It will be interesting how long Toyota will tolerate the diesels still having an advantage. And, what happens if one hybrid system has a clear advantage? Will the ACO pull it back?
We have come a long way, a couple of years ago there were those worried about the future of sportscars, now we are worried how to deal with so many works efforts in P1. A lot the auto industry feels disenfranchised by F1 and Le Mans style racing is the benificiary due to the relevance of the technolgies to the street. Personally I find all the technological advancement fascinating and look forward to the innovation this high level of competition in sportscars will bring. Look at all the different variations of car Audi has already produced over the past 3 seasons.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

.......now we are worried how to deal with so many works efforts in P1.

Really? Not me!

[Mal]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

Really? Not me!

Yep, the ACO has been aiming for P1 to be the domain of the big manufacturers for some time and they want the privateers to be in P2 (or ALMS). We don't know how long it will last but we might as well milk it while we can.

[Mal]

If Pug and Audi are going the Hybrid route it would make a lot of sense for them to put one or two non hybrid cars in the hands of privateers such as Oreca so they would be in a position to pick up the pieces if the hybrids run into trouble.

[Tim the Grey]

For AMR, there IS one hope. ZYTEK.
They are hybrid developers, for various road car manufacturers. It's amazing just how many Hybrid Engineers are being sought over at Gaydon, just now. Many slots, unfilled, for months, as these guys are pretty scarce, and highly valued...
I can see Zytek's little factory unit in Banbury seeing a few visitors from AMR (5 minutes walk away!) soon. Though whether it bears fruit, now there's another question!

[Carsandmotorracing]

If LMP1 goes full hybrid, i'll stop watching. I have better things to do with my life. Better classes of auto racing to continue watching.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

If LMP1 goes full hybrid, i'll stop watching. I have better things to do with my life. Better classes of auto racing to continue watching.

What's "full hybrid" and which classes do currently provide better racing than LMP1?

[gwyllion]

If the new LMP1 rules attract more manufacturers and make the sport increasingly relevant for road cars, why stop watching?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Imagine being a Rebellion or an Oak, unless regs change further you will need to have either a diesel and/or a hybrid system to be competitive. The factories won't be keen to lease these out so other routes will have to be taken - Hope Polevision, the Williams system, etc. Making it prohibitively expensive.

Rebellion stated they had plans for a hybrid system when the Toyota deal was announced, OAK too have said their 2014 coupe will be designed with this in mind.

Such systems will be off-the-shelf from the likes of Williams and Zytek, the Drayson electric car also has plenty of systems that could be supplied.

[The Badger]

So , can we expect to see MIK Corse kicking some butt this year ?

There is a rumour that they will contest the WEC with a Zytek/Hybrid ..... turn key car , should be magnificent !!!

[porsche91722]

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

If LMP1 goes full hybrid, i'll stop watching. I have better things to do with my life. Better classes of auto racing to continue watching.

There were lots of people saying similar things when the diesels turned up. Sports car racing has always been about innovation. It will be interesting to see how competitive the hybrids and the delta wing will be when they hit the track. Some work, some don't.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by AGD

It seems that the ACO is confused as to whether it should be a wide open competition of technology or if it should be a BoP league (AKA "Bush league"). Right now they are trending toward the BoP side while maintaining a wide open facade.

The unfortunate reality, is either you have a closed formula, or a BoP formula. By that I mean, you either run all single engine sizes, # cylinders, or you have to BoP. This has been true for several decades now... how much boost are turbos allowed, differing engine displacements, car weights, tire sizes, cylinders, type of fuel and so on.

It is pretty much universally assumed that they didn't get the Balance correct in the first place, and still don't have it correct going into next year. Much more knowledgeable people than I have discussed the topic.

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/newssept11.html

The reaction was mixed in the "paddock." One said, "It's a strange decision, at Le Mans this year the ACO told us the diesels had roughly 50-60 more horsepower. And now they reduce them by around 35 hp. So we go into 2012 knowing the diesels will have an advantage of around 30 hp."

So, the Diesels have a 30 hp advantage now over the petrols, and then they are going to have the hybrid technology as well?

If they don't get it right the first time, shouldn't they reserve the right to fix things?

[wolfhound]

The one big risk for the manufacturers if there are 4 or 5 of them if one of them does a very good job in their energy recovery and storage system.
This will give such a car a very significant advantage leaving the opposition looking very poor.
Such a situation could lead to manufacturers leaving very quickly as it could take a couple of years to catch up.

[Carsandmotorracing]

Originally Posted by Acid09

What's "full hybrid" and which classes do currently provide better racing than LMP1?

As in all LMP1 cars go to hybrid engines. I don't mind desiel, bio-fuel ect. Just hate hybrid and electric engines.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by wolfhound

This will give such a car a very significant advantage leaving the opposition looking very poor.

Audi's recent comments contradicts this (as you probably have read from the Future Regs thread).

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by deggis

Audi's recent comments contradicts this (as you probably have read from the Future Regs thread).

Those in the business of lobbying to maintain an advantage are hardly the ones that you should be listening to regarding the fairness of the regulations.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

Those in the business of lobbying to maintain an advantage are hardly the ones that you should be listening to regarding the fairness of the regulations.

I was referring only to the fuel tank sizes (http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....postcount=1541).

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

So , can we expect to see MIK Corse kicking some butt this year ?

There is a rumour that they will contest the WEC with a Zytek/Hybrid ..... turn key car , should be magnificent !!!

No. They'll be lucky (probably very lucky) to beat the likes of OAK and Rebellion even.

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

If they don't get it right the first time, shouldn't they reserve the right to fix things?

Fix what though? Fix the difference between diesel and petrol theoretically? Fix the difference between the diesel teams and petrol teams as things exist right now? Fix the difference between the diesel and petrol teams as things are expected to be in 2012 (or whatever future period)?

There's the possibility of balance of technology and then there is balance of performance on a team by team (or car to car) basis. This line is blurred because of the fact that the "have" teams are running one type of fuel while the "have nots" are running the other type of fuel. Things will change in the future and another layer of technology, hybrids, will be added. Some teams will have hybrids, some will not. The teams that have hybrids will use different types of hybrid systems. Potentially, these different hybrid systems will have performance differences on the track. How is this dealt with is the key question to me.

Originally Posted by wolfhound

The one big risk for the manufacturers if there are 4 or 5 of them if one of them does a very good job in their energy recovery and storage system.
This will give such a car a very significant advantage leaving the opposition looking very poor.
Such a situation could lead to manufacturers leaving very quickly as it could take a couple of years to catch up.

Potentially. We cannot assume that all factory teams will have Audi and Peugeot levels of quality. Some may be worse, perhaps some may be better. We'll see. Will the ACO balance the teams and the technology they use? Will the ACO say they are balancing technology when what they are really doing is balancing teams in order to make it more palatable?

I'm not sure if we live in an era where a team can dominate Le Mans and win it by two or three laps. Ok, it's one thing if that happens thanks to a fluke type deal (like Petit), but what happens if a team goes and stomps on the throughout the whole race? I think it would be outrage. Personally, I would congratulate the winners and/or criticize the losers. Others would probably claim rule outrage and demand changes. What is the ACO to do? Tell the fans, factories, and privateers to shut their pieholes and understand the word competition? Or do they go the "Made for TV" route?

Unfortunately, attention spans are short and the ACO may feel compelled to try to make the whole 24 Hours (or 6 hours for regular races) a drama filled, action packed thriller just to keep people from switching the channel to see what's cooking on the Food Network or to watch reality shows of ex-sports car racer Bruce Jenner. I'm hoping the ACO keeps their eyes on the ball and does not worry about what everyone else is doing in a global sense, but we'll see how things play out.

[The Badger]

I think Zytek need to field their own team to showcase their product . Why leave it up to others .

I dont expect MIK Corse to do much . But thats not exactly doing Zytek any favours either , is it ?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Carsandmotorracing

As in all LMP1 cars go to hybrid engines. I don't mind desiel, bio-fuel ect. Just hate hybrid and electric engines.

The goal of hybrids is to extend the lifespan of the internal combustion engine and the resources needed to run them.

Without a hybrid component Ferrari will likely have to stop producing V12's as they'd struggle to pass future emmissions laws or deliver acceptable mileage. For the rest of us in the real world what chance have we got to run a performance car if the politicians make them prohibitively expensive to run.

Beat them at their own game by using technology to keep the fun in motoring.

Originally Posted by The Badger

I think Zytek need to field their own team to showcase their product . Why leave it up to others .

I dont expect MIK Corse to do much . But thats not exactly doing Zytek any favours either , is it ?

If you follow them on twitter the hybrid has had extensive testing, the system is also being tested by Super GT and of course there are close links to Nissan which could extend to a P1 engine/hybrid link-up.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I think Zytek need to field their own team to showcase their product . Why leave it up to others .

I dont expect MIK Corse to do much . But thats not exactly doing Zytek any favours either , is it ?

I guess that is the risk customer team suppliers have to take.

[The Badger]

From the sound of the busniess their doing ..... their not short of a few bob . So , they really should be showcasing their product , imo .