Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 16 Feb 2013, 15:06 (Ref:3205877)   #1
MJones94
Racer
 
MJones94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
United Kingdom
Posts: 495
MJones94 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
GTE vs GT3

I have noticed that there are a lot of threads with posts regarding GTE vs GT3, and thought that I may as well make a thread for the matter.

It is becoming more apparent that GT3 cars are in many cases as fast or indeed faster than their more expensive GTE cousins.

GT3 cars are getting more aero parts and are becoming wider and wider, so does this mean that GT3 will eventually evolve into GTE, with the latter class dying out?

It will be interesting to see whether the GTC (GT3 cars) in the ELMS are able to keep up with the GTE cars.
MJones94 is offline  
__________________
"How would you like a newspaper upside your head?"
@MattMK45
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 16:45 (Ref:3205902)   #2
Mt. Lynx
Racer
 
Mt. Lynx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Sweden
Stockholm
Posts: 278
Mt. Lynx should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
IIRC one of the criterias for GT3 cars to enter in the Le Mans series was a performance restriction to keep them separated from GTE on track.
Mt. Lynx is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 16:54 (Ref:3205906)   #3
Victor_RO
Veteran
 
Victor_RO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Romania
Cluj-Napoca, Romania
Posts: 6,269
Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx View Post
IIRC one of the criterias for GT3 cars to enter in the Le Mans series was a performance restriction to keep them separated from GTE on track.
That was last year I believe, this year... a Gallardo in GT3/GTC with Peter Kox driving? You'd need about a ton of lead to stop him being faster than the GTE cars.
Victor_RO is offline  
__________________
When in doubt? C4.
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 17:52 (Ref:3205926)   #4
morningview66
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 314
morningview66 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmorningview66 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Well the BMW Z4 that is going to be running in the GTE class of the American Le Mans Series this year isnt a GTE at all. Af far as i have heard from various sources its actually a GT3 car with various bits added and various bits taken away.

It seems possible that the ACO will be moving towards this kind of thing for its GT class in the future, a sort of modified GT3 car/Gt3 based car, so manufacturers dont need to build an entirely new car. But also far enough away from GT3 so that it dosent seem like the ACO has simply stolen SRO's GT3 category.
morningview66 is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 17:57 (Ref:3205927)   #5
Fogelhund
Veteran
 
Fogelhund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Canada
Binbrook, ON Canada
Posts: 6,958
Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by morningview66 View Post
Well the BMW Z4 that is going to be running in the GTE class of the American Le Mans Series this year isnt a GTE at all. Af far as i have heard from various sources its actually a GT3 car with various bits added and various bits taken away.

It seems possible that the ACO will be moving towards this kind of thing for its GT class in the future, a sort of modified GT3 car/Gt3 based car, so manufacturers dont need to build an entirely new car. But also far enough away from GT3 so that it dosent seem like the ACO has simply stolen SRO's GT3 category.
Once homologated, it is a GTE car. What difference does it make where the starting point was? So they took a GT3 car and made it a GTE car... still the result is a GTE car. The other option is to take a road car, and make it a GTE car....
Fogelhund is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 18:37 (Ref:3205934)   #6
morningview66
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 314
morningview66 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmorningview66 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Once homologated, it is a GTE car. What difference does it make where the starting point was? So they took a GT3 car and made it a GTE car... still the result is a GTE car. The other option is to take a road car, and make it a GTE car....
No i mean its not even built to GTE regulations.

Its only allowed into the ALMS by waivers on engine, chassis all sorts and this is why the ACO currently havent homologated the car and it wont be at Le Mans. If you believe the guys at Radio Le Mans and dailysportscar.com that is.

I remember them saying something specific about the wheelbase for GTE has to be the production length, whereas this Z4 racing in the ALMS has the GT3 wheelbase.

Its dos'nt conform to GTE regs was their general point, its only racing through waivers and performance balancing. It may be that this is the way GTE is going however, ill give you that.
morningview66 is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 19:44 (Ref:3205951)   #7
Koenigsegg
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Netherlands
Netherlands
Posts: 663
Koenigsegg should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Z4 GTE is ACO homologated. It isn't doing Le Mans this year because it's a new car and they still need to do testing and development.
Koenigsegg is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 20:22 (Ref:3205961)   #8
somebodysb2
Racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Hong Kong
Hong Kong
Posts: 276
somebodysb2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsomebodysb2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The previous BMW M3 GT2 had just as many waivers and it actually ran at the 24 Hours of Le Mans (ACO, 2010/11) and the Intercontinental Le Mans Cup (ACO, 2010/11). The lack of participation in 2012 and now, 2013 is due to their commitments to DTM.

BMW Motorsport Official Statement:
Quote:
FIA’s new World Endurance Championship – a series in which BMW will unfortunately not be participating in given their effort to mount an entry back into DTM – hence no BMW entry to this year’s 24 Hours of Le Mans.
AFAIK, the ACO does not have an "intolerance" for waivers as you suggest. The SRT Viper GTS-R's engine is 8.0L instead of being 8.4L in the road car, and it still manages to be 2.5L over the maximum amount of 5.5L. Other modifications include transmission placement. Lets not forget that this car is going to race in the 24 Hours of Le Mans (ACO, 2013).

There goes your argument.
somebodysb2 is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 20:25 (Ref:3205962)   #9
Scooter185
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 364
Scooter185 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Power creep is definitely an issue that needs addressing, and hopefully that will happen soon. It would be pretty awesome to see the same car run at Dubai, Bathurst, Le Mans, N'ring, and Spa and maybe eventually Daytona and Sebring.
Scooter185 is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 22:30 (Ref:3205994)   #10
Koenigsegg
Veteran
 
Join Date: May 2012
Netherlands
Netherlands
Posts: 663
Koenigsegg should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter185 View Post
Power creep is definitely an issue that needs addressing, and hopefully that will happen soon. It would be pretty awesome to see the same car run at Dubai, Bathurst, Le Mans, N'ring, and Spa and maybe eventually Daytona and Sebring.
GTE cars can already compete at all those tracks/endurance races, except Bathurst. Daytona in 2013.
Koenigsegg is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 22:35 (Ref:3205996)   #11
morningview66
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 314
morningview66 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmorningview66 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodysb2 View Post
The previous BMW M3 GT2 had just as many waivers and it actually ran at the 24 Hours of Le Mans (ACO, 2010/11) and the Intercontinental Le Mans Cup (ACO, 2010/11). The lack of participation in 2012 and now, 2013 is due to their commitments to DTM.

BMW Motorsport Official Statement:

AFAIK, the ACO does not have an "intolerance" for waivers as you suggest. The SRT Viper GTS-R's engine is 8.0L instead of being 8.4L in the road car, and it still manages to be 2.5L over the maximum amount of 5.5L. Other modifications include transmission placement. Lets not forget that this car is going to race in the 24 Hours of Le Mans (ACO, 2013).

There goes your argument.
I am fully aware that other cars have waivers such as the massive engine in the Viper. I could be wrong, but from what i have heard the Z4 is on another level.


And i also have no doubt that we will be likely be seeing the Z4 at Le Mans next year. At least i hope it will. Though i didn't think it has been homologated by the ACO just yet.

Maybe i am wrong but my main point was the car is not originally designed and built to be a GTE car as all the other cars mentioned have been. BMW have just changed their GT3 to be more like a GTE car. It marks a significant step away from the GTE regs and maybe its the future. But you may as well just throw out the rulebook if people aren't going to abide by it.
And i think this is probably what will happen, that the ACO GT class will become something similar to GT3, you make your car and it will be performance balanced.

The purist in me would like to see cars built to the same rules racing and the car with the best engineering solution to the rules would win. The realist and the fan sees that not all cars were made equal, money is obviously and issue and everyone likes close racing.
morningview66 is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 22:49 (Ref:3206002)   #12
somebodysb2
Racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Hong Kong
Hong Kong
Posts: 276
somebodysb2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsomebodysb2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Some ALMS team did a Lamborghini conversion before. It was a complete failure. Probably because it was a straight conversion job. The Z4 GTE, is not.

The Z4 GT3 definitely had a role in the GTE's development. But in the same way that the 458 GT2/GT3 or 2012 RSR/2013 R are related.

I would not consider a completely new aero package among other things, BMW "just changing" things. The Z4 GT3 was used as the base, but the Z4 GTE is a completely different beast. It's like saying that the 2007 Courage LC75 is the same thing as the 2013 HPD ARX-03c.

We humans may have been "descended" from apes and whatnot, but look at where we are now?

I see no "impurity" in the Z4. And they are built to the same rules. It's called GTE.
somebodysb2 is offline  
Quote
Old 16 Feb 2013, 23:23 (Ref:3206014)   #13
MitchZ06
Veteran
 
MitchZ06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
New Zealand
Australia
Posts: 2,261
MitchZ06 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Have a read of John Dagys' article on the Z4 GTE, it's stsrting point may have been the GT3 version but it has been totally modified in all areas bar the engine and transmission to become a GTE car.
MitchZ06 is offline  
__________________
MBL - SpeedyMouse Race House
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2013, 00:54 (Ref:3206040)   #14
morningview66
Racer
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 314
morningview66 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmorningview66 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I guess maybe im wrong then.

I was basing my argument on Jon Hindaugh from Radio Le Mans and Graham Goodwin from daily sportscar.com discussing the Z4 on midweek motorsport.

They seemed to be adamant that it was flaunting the GTE rules. But yeah im happy to accept that its enough of a GTE to be running in the ALMS.

Admittedly i have changed my tune a little, but i dont know all the facts
morningview66 is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2013, 01:04 (Ref:3206041)   #15
MitchZ06
Veteran
 
MitchZ06's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
New Zealand
Australia
Posts: 2,261
MitchZ06 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The only rules flaunting it's doing is using the V8 and a transaxle gearbox. The M3 used a transaxle so that's not the biggest issue people have with it, it's the use of a V8 which no production Z4 road car has.
MitchZ06 is offline  
__________________
MBL - SpeedyMouse Race House
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2013, 01:41 (Ref:3206050)   #16
Fogelhund
Veteran
 
Fogelhund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Canada
Binbrook, ON Canada
Posts: 6,958
Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by morningview66 View Post
No i mean its not even built to GTE regulations.

Its only allowed into the ALMS by waivers on engine, chassis all sorts and this is why the ACO currently havent homologated the car and it wont be at Le Mans. If you believe the guys at Radio Le Mans and dailysportscar.com that is.

I remember them saying something specific about the wheelbase for GTE has to be the production length, whereas this Z4 racing in the ALMS has the GT3 wheelbase.

Its dos'nt conform to GTE regs was their general point, its only racing through waivers and performance balancing. It may be that this is the way GTE is going however, ill give you that.
Name the car that meets all GTE rules and regs...
Fogelhund is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2013, 13:13 (Ref:3206201)   #17
joeb
Race Official
Veteran
 
joeb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United States
Baton Rouge, LA
Posts: 15,593
joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!joeb is the undisputed Champion of the World!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Name the car that meets all GTE rules and regs...
Exactly, to me a large part of the issue is that the GTE rules are not the best fit for the current crop of cars out there.
joeb is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2013, 13:41 (Ref:3206206)   #18
Mt. Lynx
Racer
 
Mt. Lynx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Sweden
Stockholm
Posts: 278
Mt. Lynx should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
The Z4 GT3 took its drivelineline from the M3 GT2. The GT3 rules stipulates that the engine has to come from the mfg's production line.
The GTE rules stipulate(d) that the engine block had to come from the roadcar. That rule is now blurred, to allow BMW to use their V8.
Mt. Lynx is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2013, 14:41 (Ref:3206215)   #19
somebodysb2
Racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Hong Kong
Hong Kong
Posts: 276
somebodysb2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridsomebodysb2 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx View Post
The Z4 GT3 took its drivelineline from the M3 GT2. The GT3 rules stipulates that the engine has to come from the mfg's production line.
The GTE rules stipulate(d) that the engine block had to come from the roadcar. That rule is now blurred, to allow BMW to use their V8.
Aaand the SRT Viper "blurred the line" allowing engines with a maximum of 5.5L

Your point?

PS, its a waiver
somebodysb2 is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2013, 14:42 (Ref:3206216)   #20
Fogelhund
Veteran
 
Fogelhund's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Canada
Binbrook, ON Canada
Posts: 6,958
Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!Fogelhund has a real shot at the championship!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx View Post
The Z4 GT3 took its drivelineline from the M3 GT2. The GT3 rules stipulates that the engine has to come from the mfg's production line.
The GTE rules stipulate(d) that the engine block had to come from the roadcar. That rule is now blurred, to allow BMW to use their V8.
The rules also state that there is a maximum 5.5l displacement... hello Viper... Once you've let the horses out of the barn...
Fogelhund is offline  
Quote
Old 17 Feb 2013, 21:54 (Ref:3206370)   #21
Pandamasque
Veteran
 
Pandamasque's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Ukraine
Kyiv, Ukraine
Posts: 2,203
Pandamasque has a real shot at the podium!Pandamasque has a real shot at the podium!Pandamasque has a real shot at the podium!Pandamasque has a real shot at the podium!Pandamasque has a real shot at the podium!
I must say there is a difference between waiving a (pointless!) rule to homologate a road car and keep it close to its original form, compared to waiving rules to homologate a road car allowing illegal performance enhansing change of wheelbase, track, drivetrain layout, engine swap. That always qualified as a prototype (not silhouette).

For the record, I don't hate the BMW brand or the Z4 in particular. I rather like the look and sound of the Z4 GT3 car, I also wouldn't ever call the road version a hairdresser's machine, although this beauty could have a more defined personality/purpose. But what it does to GTE is unparalleled.

Last edited by Pandamasque; 17 Feb 2013 at 22:00.
Pandamasque is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Feb 2013, 05:41 (Ref:3206549)   #22
Scooter185
Racer
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
United States
Connecticut
Posts: 364
Scooter185 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koenigsegg View Post
GTE cars can already compete at all those tracks/endurance races, except Bathurst. Daytona in 2013.
GTE cars can run at the spa and ring 24 hour races? I was also referring to how currently gt3 cars cannot run at Le Mans.
Scooter185 is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Feb 2013, 05:43 (Ref:3206551)   #23
Victor_RO
Veteran
 
Victor_RO's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Romania
Cluj-Napoca, Romania
Posts: 6,269
Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!Victor_RO is going for a new world record!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter185 View Post
GTE cars can run at the spa and ring 24 hour races? I was also referring to how currently gt3 cars cannot run at Le Mans.
GTE cars run only at the Spa 6 Hours, not the 24 Hours. As for the N24, it depends on engine size and number of waivers whether a GTE car would run in SP7, SP8 or one of the E1-XP invitational classes.
Victor_RO is offline  
__________________
When in doubt? C4.
Quote
Old 18 Feb 2013, 16:37 (Ref:3206776)   #24
Ratzenberger
Rookie
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Austria
Salzburg
Posts: 41
Ratzenberger should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fogelhund View Post
Name the car that meets all GTE rules and regs...
The Evora GTE?

I don't know the technical details of the Lotus but it wouldn't surprise me if the only car that follows all the regulations to the letter turns out to be the most uncompetitive in recent years.

Regarding GT3, I think the only thing that doesn't work in it's favour is it's name and it'll always be the lesser class compared to GT2/E. Perhaps the time has come to follow the structure GT Open has adopted and rename it GTS.
Ratzenberger is offline  
Quote
Old 18 Feb 2013, 16:45 (Ref:3206780)   #25
HJJ
Veteran
 
HJJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
United States
Hoschburg, just outside of Brasleburg.
Posts: 1,711
HJJ should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHJJ should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHJJ should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
#thefuture?

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-taking-shape/
HJJ is offline  
__________________
It's great to be here!
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
GTE Speculation Dented Table Sportscar & GT Racing 694 14 May 2013 16:55
GT3 vs GTE Cost Racenut Sportscar & GT Racing 15 1 Feb 2012 17:03
BMW Z4 GT3 vs BMW M3 GTE Matt Sportscar & GT Racing 4 20 Dec 2011 19:24
GTE speed limiter gucom Sportscar & GT Racing 19 11 Aug 2010 02:41
Gt3 Rs & Gt3 R Omega-Red Sportscar & GT Racing 18 27 Nov 2003 18:55


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:58.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.