Is TC illegal? (split thread)

Pingguest · 31 Oct 2005, 11:08 (Ref:1448248)

Quote:

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

My impression is that the existing Honda team (AKA BAR) will run the new car they design and build, while the new Honda team can run the 2005 car as long as they build it themselves, and Honda build something different for their team?

That's forbidden by the Concorde Agreement. But on the other hand, the use of traction control is also forbidden by agreement.

Kicking-back · 31 Oct 2005, 11:12 (Ref:1448252)

Traction control is fully legal

Pingguest · 31 Oct 2005, 12:17 (Ref:1448310)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Traction control is fully legal

Not really. The regulations allows the use of traction control. But the Concorde Agreement (which has the function of some sort of constitution) forbids the use of traction control. That's why Paul Stoddart threatened to go court a couple of times.

**Adam43** · 31 Oct 2005, 12:32 (Ref:1448325)

Fortunately the F1 technical rules allow it so that is OK (see the FIA website for a copy). Lend me a copy of the Concorde agreement and we can settle this! The Concorde agreement generally covers the commercial side of the sport with provisions about how the technical and sporting rules can be changed.

Pingguest · 31 Oct 2005, 12:43 (Ref:1448338)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Fortunately the F1 technical rules allow it so that is OK (see the FIA website for a copy). Lend me a copy of the Concorde agreement and we can settle this! The Concorde agreement generally covers the commercial side of the sport with provisions about how the technical and sporting rules can be changed.

The Concorde Agreement is never been published. But even the FIA has admitted that the Agreement forbids the use of traction control. If one teamboss goes to court, the judge will ban the use of traction control, because of the agreement. Tonight I'll try to find some articles about this.

Tone · 31 Oct 2005, 12:49 (Ref:1448344)

I thought the Concorde Agreement dealt with the commercial side of Formula One and Sporting Regulations dealt with the technical side.

**Adam43** · 31 Oct 2005, 13:32 (Ref:1448366)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pingguest

The Concorde Agreement is never been published.

Yes.

Anyway, as this has taken over the other thread I've split it.

Nintendo · 31 Oct 2005, 13:57 (Ref:1448381)

Formula One is great in its clarity, isn't it?

TheNewBob · 31 Oct 2005, 16:24 (Ref:1448492)

Clear as mud!

Policing the issue could be a problem if it was banned. Would a controlled, standard, ECU solve anything for this? Downside being it could reduce the technical/electrical aspect which some argue is an accepted part of F1...?

**Adam43** · 31 Oct 2005, 16:55 (Ref:1448513)

Frankly this issue is clear. Traction Control is allowed. It was banned, but then every team owner agreed it should come back. It came back at the '01 Spanish GP. Any mud is because people want it to be muddy not because it is.

Nintendo · 31 Oct 2005, 17:08 (Ref:1448523)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Frankly this issue is clear. Traction Control is allowed. It was banned, but then every team owner agreed it should come back. It came back at the '01 Spanish GP. Any mud is because people want it to be muddy not because it is.

Crystal Clear.

Pingguest · 31 Oct 2005, 18:06 (Ref:1448576)

In March 2004 Paul Stoddart wanted to sue the FIA, because of the Concorde Agreement clearly forbids the use of traction control.
http://www.f1racing.net/en/news.php?newsID=44975

The team bosses have agreed that traction control may be used. But if one of the team bosses withdraws his vote, anyone in F1 can go to court.

**Adam43** · 31 Oct 2005, 19:09 (Ref:1448650)

He didn't withdraw his support though. He didn't do anything. So TC is allowed. Besides he probably would have lost anyway as you can't commit to something and then change your mind three years later. Well you can try, but he didn't.

So the only thing to conclude is that it is legal. Especially as there have been about 30 GP since that article and 80 odd since TC was legalised by agreement of all.

There are absolutely loads of things that are changed in the Concorde agreement due to agreements between the teams are you saying all of them are false? In addition we have not seen that TC was part of any terms in the Concorde agreement (I'm not saying it wasn't, just that article does not say it was).

Pingguest · 31 Oct 2005, 21:04 (Ref:1448769)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

He didn't withdraw his support though. He didn't do anything.

Did I tell you the opposite?

**Adam43** · 31 Oct 2005, 21:08 (Ref:1448775)

Did I say you did?

**dtype38** · 31 Oct 2005, 23:18 (Ref:1448915)

Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Frankly this issue is clear. Traction Control is allowed. It was banned, but then every team owner agreed it should come back. It came back at the '01 Spanish GP. Any mud is because people want it to be muddy not because it is.

If memory serves (which it seldom does) traction control was banned by removing any link between wheel speed sensors and engine control. Then Ferrari were challenged for having "illegal" traction control because they were using various engine measurements to determine if the rear wheels were doing the same speed as the car. Ferrari denied it saying that they were using measurements such as air box pressure to correctly fuel the engine and not to measure the track speed of the car. The FIA investigated and found that it wasn't actually possible to differentiate this form of "optimising fueling and ignition maps for air intake speed" from "limiting engine power based on car speed" and so roughly quoting the findings "It may or may not be a form of traction control, we can't tell!" Thus making any ban un-enforcable.

ttc · 3 Nov 2005, 05:09 (Ref:1451053)

What?! You mean even Minardi had veto power?!

Isn't that EXCLUSIVE for Ferrari only?!!!!!!

OMG! FRONT PAGE NEWS folks. And you saw it here first!

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