Mazda LMP2 - no more rotary

[paul-collins]

http://www.speedarena.com/news/publi...cle_7283.shtml

Relevant details:
I4-turbo
Lola B07/40
Ben Devlin taking Guy Cosmo's seat
Kumho tires
customer program in '08

MAZDASPEED engineers in the U.S. and Japan, in conjunction with U.K. based Advanced Engine Research Ltd (AER), will debut an all-new MZR-R prototype engine at the 2007 12 Hours of Sebring. The new engine, a clean sheet design, is a turbocharged 2.0 liter in-line four cylinder. The performance goals for the engine are 500hp and 400 lb-ft, with the durability to succeed in such grueling races as the 12 Hours of Sebring and the 10-hour Petit Le Mans. The engineering team is working to incorporate the production-based Mazda Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI) system into the race motor. The technical collaboration between Mazda and AER has been non-stop in preparation for the season-opener at Sebring.

<snip>
Sanders continued, “The Mazda and AER engineers are working closely with Honeywell Turbo Technologies on the development of a new Garrett motorsports turbocharger design for this engine program. The overall LMP2 program is driven by Mazda engineering, as we use motorsports to help develop future advanced technologies with the potential to transfer over to our production vehicles.”

Garrett did F1 turbos back in the day, I believe, which included variable geometry and nozzle design elements. Anyone think that, now that gasoline engines are allowed this (diesels got it last year) Garrett will be pursuing this line? As knighty said elsewhere, it's the torque that wins races, and that's where variable geometry helps turbos... However, thermal loads will be a major issue - and diesels don't have the same problems there.

It's going to be a good heads-up display of where they are, now that they're using an up to date chassis, too (the Lola B07/40). Assuming that Kumho is up to the challenge...

[The Badger]

Bloody shame about the engine !!! I was hoping to hear the wail of a rotary again sometime .

Nice to hear about a customer program though .

[isynge]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

http://www.speedarena.com/news/publi...cle_7283.shtml

Relevant details:
I4-turbo
Lola B07/40
Ben Devlin taking Guy Cosmo's seat
Kumho tires
customer program in '08

Assuming that Kumho is up to the challenge...

I'm moderately positive about the Kumhos - they'll have a reasonable number of cars on them next year (including Intersport) and didn't do badly at all last year either with Kruse in the LMS or on the Radicals latterly in the ALMS.

Seeing the back of the rotary's a bit of a shame. That said, it's the sort of engine that needs rules peculiarities to flourish - much like it did right in the early days of Group C Junior and, of course, in 1991 at some race in France...

[SALEEN S7R]

A big shame that Mazda have gone away from the rotary but it was clear that as it was the engine wasnt going to be competitve. At least now the team have a competive engine in the shape of Mazda/AER, 500bhp is a pretty respectable figure for a LMP2 car. Now just hope its reliable.

[The359]

I asked this in the ALMS thread, but what are the differences between Mazda's B07/40, Fernandez's B06/43, and Intersport's B05/40?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

A big shame that Mazda have gone away from the rotary but it was clear that as it was the engine wasnt going to be competitve. At least now the team have a competive engine in the shape of Mazda/AER, 500bhp is a pretty respectable figure for a LMP2 car. Now just hope its reliable.

It was a big deal for Mazda to (somewhat) admit that their rotory was not up to snuff.

Going with AER was a smart and should be a very competitive move.

Think consumers could get an AERturbo in a road going RX8 ?? Now that would be a rush and one heck of a GT2 car.

[duke_toaster]

Weren't rotaries banned after the 787B?

[paul-collins]

Perhaps for a while, but they've been allowed in the ACO regs for the last 4-5 years now.

The 787B had a rules-making sweet spot that current regs don't have. It'll be a shame to not have the screamer around, but I'd trade it for a competitive effort, particularly as last year IMSA had to give turbos a boost to keep up with the Porsches...

[ccharlie6]

aren't the difference's in the lola chassis numbers down to differing engines used, each different engine gets given a different suffix.

and as for the rotary well its a terrible shame as its another engine which makes sports racing so interesting, don't get me wrong high tech turbo'd fours are good but we need the rotary scream. what happened to dennis spencer doing something about a race team?

[The359]

I thought the 2nd number had to do with engine variants, and the first was the year it was launched.

[broadrun96]

Would be nice to hear the rotary, never got the chance to hear the original at full song. But it would be good to have another competitive car and Mazda seems to be serious about their racing aspirations. But for the variable vane turbos, if its legal on the diesels there shouldn't even be a debate about allowing it on gas/petrol engines. Anybody else think it could lead to an all VAG class leaders, if the 911 Turbo/GT2 could be built to GT1 spec(no idea about the engine size with turbo rules)

[ger80]

Originally Posted by The359

I asked this in the ALMS thread, but what are the differences between Mazda's B07/40, Fernandez's B06/43, and Intersport's B05/40?

B05: LMP2 chassis that everybody drove in 2006
B06: normaly the LMP1 chassis, but Mr. Scotney told that its mostly the same than B05, only some smaller changes to suspension, ...
B07: updated LMP2 chassis (new in 2007)

/40: AER engine
/43: Honda engine

So Fernandez uses the LMP1 chassis?

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by ger80

B05: LMP2 chassis that everybody drove in 2006
B06: normaly the LMP1 chassis, but Mr. Scotney told that its mostly the same than B05, only some smaller changes to suspension, ...
B07: updated LMP2 chassis (new in 2007)

/40: AER engine
/43: Honda engine

So Fernandez uses the LMP1 chassis?

No, the 05, 06 etc is the debut season year

The format is:-
BYY/CE

B = CEO's initial (Birrane)

YY = 06, 07 etc

C=Class
4 means LMP2, 1 means LMP1, 0 is Champ cars, 3 is Formula 3, 6 P675, 9 Sports 2000, etc.

E= engine
The zero is the generic designation so 40 refers to all LMP2s and 10 all LMP1's

The second digit if not zero is the engine installation and is an "internal" designation

So, of course there can be more that one B07. Thus B07/40 is LMP2 but B07/90 is the new Sports 2000.

Link:- http://www.lolaheritage.co.uk/news/news154/154.htm

See Lola's site for a bit more on this, but I'm sure someone has a list of the final digits and what engine installation they refer to.

http://www.lolacars.com/keycast/m2/m...=3&menuClick=Y



Mariantic

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by mariantic

B = CEO's initial

Is Broadley still involved?

[mariantic]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Is Broadley still involved?

Sorry, I just did an edit to say the B is for (Martin) Birrane

Marianitc

[FIRE]

Ok

[AU N EGL]

"At the center is the all-new MZR-R prototype engine, which replaces the three-rotor Mazda powerplant present in the B-K Motorsports' entry the past two seasons. The performance goals for the engine are 500hp and 400 lb-ft of torque, with the durability to succeed in such grueling races as Sebring and Petit Le Mans. The engineering team is working to incorporate the production-based Mazda Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI) system into the race motor. The technical collaboration between Mazda and AER has been non-stop in preparation for the season-opener at Sebring. "Given the rules package, we needed to make a radical change to be able to match the competition," said Steve Sanders, MAZDASPEED Motorsports Development Manager. "The current conditions and rules simply do not allow our rotary engine to have any competitive advantage, hence the move to piston power this season.

"The Mazda and AER engineers are working closely with Honeywell Turbo Technologies on the development of a new Garrett motorsports turbocharger design for this engine program," Sanders added. "The overall LMP2 program is driven by Mazda engineering, as we use motorsports to help develop future advanced technologies with the potential to transfer over to our production vehicles."

Housing the new Mazda engine is a Lola B07/40 chassis. It is the successor of the highly successful B05/40 that has posted eight P2 victories in the Series since debuting in 2005. Lola has a tradition of winning in the American Le Mans Series with 37 class victories, 34 coming in LMP2. Lola also holds the class record for consecutive wins with 18 (Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca in 2002 through Mosport 2004).

"The partnership between Mazda, Lola, AER, Honeywell/Garrett, Kumho Tires and many other suppliers on this project has been excellent," said Marcus Haselgrove, B-K Motorsports Team Manager. "Jointly developing race and road car technology with the MZR-R is what sports car racing is about. We hope to be competitive from Round 1, but the P2 competition will be the toughest in American Le Mans Series history."

Source: http://www.americanlemans.com/News/Article.aspx?ID=2774

[The359]

Well then is the Fernandez B06/43 an upgraded B05/40, while B07/40 is an all new car? Do all three share the same tub?

[KaspervG]

Of course they share the same spec tub.
It only refers to the debut year of that particular chassis. So I think Intersport probably will have all the '07 updates on their '05 chassis.

[knighty]

I was looking at the pictures of the new AER-Mazda 4-pot compared to the old/current 4-pot on the AER website - and sure enough it looks like an all new engine......I dare say a few bits and bobs got carried over, but the vast majority of parts looks new......so mazda are not just re-badging the current/old 4-pot.......direct injection will be well worth having.......from what I hear its not for greater power but is good for better burn efficiency and therefore fuel economy - I seem to remember when the R8 switched over to DI they got an extra lap at lemans........all AER need to now do is ensure its got the reliability........obviously in the early days of the old/current 4-pot it was not too good........but RML did the business at LeMans in 06 and it now seems to be a quite reliable motor.........as far as LMP2 engines go I thing the 4-pot is the better route now days.......I dont have the figures to hand but I think the 4-pot has the edge over judd on torque, fuel economy and weight.......back in 2001 I heard the Judd LMP675 had 530bhp compared to the 4-pots 510bhp........but obviously things have changed now........probably about equal on power nowdays.........looks like Mazda will be onto a winner there - will be interesting to see how they compare to the spyders.

[vorsprung]

Originally Posted by knighty

I was looking at the pictures of the new AER-Mazda 4-pot compared to the old/current 4-pot on the AER website - and sure enough it looks like an all new engine......I dare say a few bits and bobs got carried over, but the vast majority of parts looks new......so mazda are not just re-badging the current/old 4-pot.

According to Mulsanne Mike's post on alms forums the MZR-R is all new and doesn't use any parts from P07.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by knighty

.all AER need to now do is ensure its got the reliability........obviously in the early days of the old/current 4-pot it was not too good........

but RML did the business at LeMans in 06 and it now seems to be a quite reliable motor.........as far as LMP2 engines go I thing the 4-pot is the better route now days.......I dont have the figures to hand but I think the 4-pot has the edge over judd on torque, fuel economy and weight.

knighty, I think lots of people have confused general LMP2 or LMP675 failures with engine failures. Truth be told, the engine was rarely the problem for Dyson either.

Interesting that you think the turbo is the way to go, as Porsche went NA and Acura is doing the same. Last year Intersport were running IMSA-sanctioned extra boost (2.7 instead of ACO mandated 2.5) to keep up, although how much of their lack of speed was related to Goodyear we'll never know, I guess.

I'm looking forward to seeing what Mazda/AER are able to do with DI and variable geometry.

[knighty]

only time will tell which is the better route......but I have my money on the 4-pot ......I'm interested to know the background of the Acura and porsche engines.......I have a sneaky suspicion the acura engine is a stroked IRL engine from Ilmor.......unless someone knows otherwise?.......as for the spyder engine.......I think its a purpose designed piece of kit.......both V8 engines will probably run quite well, but I dare say they will be harder on the chassis as they are are prone to vibrate that bit more due to the flat plane crank layout at 10,000 RPM plus.......I also dont think they will have the same economy as the 4 pot.......the reason RML went over to the AER 4-pot was better fuel economy - I personally find that quite believable.........but all in, it will be hard to compare the engines directly as there are 3 different chassis, lola, courage and Porsche. will be interesting to watch.

[TRuss]

I may be the only one, but this makes me happy. I hate rotaries. All they do well is make that terrible noise. It's the funniest thing the first time you hear that shriek in the distance and you're just positive that you are about to see something so fierce that you won't be able to comprehend it. After several seconds you start to wonder where this ferocious piece of machinery is...and finally it goes past screaming at what must be 30,000 RPM and you can't wait for it to go away because you fear for your ears, but it seems like it will never make it past you because it is visually going so slow. It sounds like it's going 1000mph but it's going 100. And yes your initial thought was true. You can't comprehend it. It's impossible to comprehend how something can make that much noise and go that slow. Sorry for the fans of it though. And it is cool that the rules allow for variety and at least a little innovation.

[GT-Eins]

I think it´s a clever move for Mazda & a very benificial for AER.
Mazda bought into a proven concept, ensuring its competetiveness from the start
AER now has increased development chances & ressources
if the Motor keeps to be as successful as it was (13 wins in 15 LMS-races) - and why it shouldn´t - the customer-demand in 2008 will be significiant.
That will increase Mazda´s presence at the endurace-circuits
and AER´s business!
So benificial for everyone involved