[WEC] Porsche Prototype Discussion

[Spyderman]

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[gustavobamba]

Reading this words i would say that is crucial for the next two years, that Audi and Toyota could win something to show that the series is in the right path...competitive with the right equivalences. That would be perfect.

On the other hand, the words about Nissan are bothering me.

- "It would be important now that at least Nissan come back quickly -. And please the serious Moreover, it would be great if at least get another producer, at least something to announce,"

They (Nissan) promise that the only way of winning the big 3, would be doing different... and their failure could spoke the others. Hope i´m wrong.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

Reading this words i would say that is crucial for the next two years, that Audi and Toyota could win something to show that the series is in the right path...competitive with the right equivalences. That would be perfect..

Forgive me if I don't share your point of view: Audi won for a number of years (often against non existent competition) and no one was concerned about "the series". Porsche win it for the first time and everyone is concerned that "the series" will/might suffer as it will chase away possible newcomers. To me this is complete nonsense.

Audi and maybe Toyota will win again. If it's next year or the year after, no one really knows. That is the beauty of racing.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Forgive me if I don't share your point of view: Audi won for a number of years (often against non existent competition) and no one was concerned about "the series". Porsche win it for the first time and everyone is concerned that "the series" will/might suffer as it will chase away possible newcomers. To me this is complete nonsense.

Audi and maybe Toyota will win again. If it's next year or the year after, no one really knows. That is the beauty of racing.

I´m a BIG Porsche Fan and you know it... i´m not saying Porsche should lose to please the others...don´t get me wrong. For me Porsche should win ever. i was just commentating the "possible meaning of the guy from porsche... not my opinion...ok :-)

Seeing Audi win for so long wasn´t bad...bad was when they don´t have competition (walk in the park for some years).

Before Porsche i was a Peugeot suporter and the battle´s with Audi were magnificent. In the next year´s what i want is a 3 way battle.

[YorkshireLad]

I'm not worried, sorry to use f1 as an example but Porsche domination this season wasn't like the F1 Mercedes domination.

Audi, Porsche still had some great battles and that for me added to a great year. Even if it's the same next year it will still be 100 times more interesting than the garbage on sky (BBC when it happens).
Audis new car has further enhanced the excitement I get for this championship! I'm already excited for next season and that's how it should be.
The WEC seem to be pressing all the right buttons for me.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

In the next year´s what i want is a 3 way battle.

I think you will get it.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

I'm not worried, sorry to use f1 as an example but Porsche domination this season wasn't like the F1 Mercedes domination.

Audi, Porsche still had some great battles and that for me added to a great year. Even if it's the same next year it will still be 100 times more interesting than the garbage on sky (BBC when it happens).
Audis new car has further enhanced the excitement I get for this championship! I'm already excited for next season and that's how it should be.
The WEC seem to be pressing all the right buttons for me.

That´s what WEC need´s battle´s for the win not the "crap" in F1.

To the next season be more exciting... Toyota should be able to race at the same level that Audi and Porsche... and Nissan allot closer or else they should leave IMHO.

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

I think you will get it.

My concerne will be Toyota reliability!!! because in the 8 MJ category and proper aero ... they should step up their game

[Spyderman]

I can actually see a down-side to extreme competition on track between the 3 makes: If there are 6 cars all struggling with each other and trying to get through traffic, there's bound to be more accidents. I can see the regulators pouncing on this immediately (never let a crisis go to waste) and using it as an excuse to drastically slow the cars down in the following year.
Let's hope this does not happen.

[YorkshireLad]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

That´s what WEC need´s battle´s for the win not the "crap" in F1.



To the next season be more exciting... Toyota should be able to race at the same level that Audi and Porsche... and Nissan allot closer or else they should leave IMHO.

Without starting the Nissan lmp1 thread cycle in this thread, why would you want them to leave though? This championship really needs teams to think outside the box, it's what adds that extra zing which lacks in other series' id rather see Nissan plod around for the next few seasons trying their hardest to come up with something different, rather than give up.

Watch the GoPro/nismo YouTube video, titled art of innovation... It makes it seem worth while and to give them some support.

Their was plenty of battles this year.. Spa for instance, Audi and Porsche like cat and mouse down eau rouge plus round the rest of the circuit. Hindy just adds to that excitement when he's doing what he does best with the commentary!!

It's been a great season, if next year all 4 are competitive just think how good that will be!

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

I'm not worried, sorry to use f1 as an example but Porsche domination this season wasn't like the F1 Mercedes domination.

Interesting point - Porsche may have sweeped the back end of the season but Audi were faster/competitive for parts of those races. For instance Fuji could have been won by the #7 if they made the right calls (with hindsight), and all of a sudden Mark Webber is second. Again

In an endurance series like the WEC I'd rather see interesting races that happen to have the same winner(s) than a close championship where each time one team/car runs off into the distance. After all these are supposed to be events in and of themselves, despite the FIA/ACO's best efforts to the contrary.

Originally Posted by YorkshireLad

This championship really needs teams to think outside the box, it's what adds that extra zing which lacks in other series' id rather see Nissan plod around for the next few seasons trying their hardest to come up with something different, rather than give up.

I don' think it needs teams to think "outside the box" - I can't see anyone complaining about how boring or predictable the factory cars have been over the last couple of years, but if anyone can make an unconventional car work then more power to them. Hopefully we'll not be wanting for fast cars from all the factories.

[Spyderman]

There were lots of little nuggets of information in yesterday's MWM interviews with the CTO's of the various LMP1 teams.
Besides the technical tit-bits, one of the things that became apparent to me (more so than I had previously been aware of) is the Alex Hitzinger really feels comfortable living on the edge (in terms of tech development). I loved listening to him (not surprisingly) and although I came away thinking that there may be some more "Juliet 6" moments, we are almost guaranteed to see some very interesting developments and I was reassured that Porsche will not rest on its laurels (will it be enough remains to be seen).
Was this just me projecting or did anyone else get the same impression?

[gustavobamba]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

There were lots of little nuggets of information in yesterday's MWM interviews with the CTO's of the various LMP1 teams.
Besides the technical tit-bits, one of the things that became apparent to me (more so than I had previously been aware of) is the Alex Hitzinger really feels comfortable living on the edge (in terms of tech development). I loved listening to him (not surprisingly) and although I came away thinking that there may be some more "Juliet 6" moments, we are almost guaranteed to see some very interesting developments and I was reassured that Porsche will not rest on its laurels (will it be enough remains to be seen).
Was this just me projecting or did anyone else get the same impression?

I was listening with very curiosity and something come clear to me: They will go "hard" again they will not rest.

In the interview Mr. Alex told that with the new (10 Mj reduced fuel per lap) the cars will lose about 3-4 seconds at Le Mans... but he told that they will reduce that gap by working on aero (they are at the limit in hybrid 8 Mj).

He also suggested that sub 3:20 will be likely again

[Artur]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

In the interview Mr. Alex told that with the new (10 Mj reduced fuel per lap) the cars will lose about 3-4 seconds at Le Mans... but he told that they will reduce that gap by working on aero (they are at the limit in hybrid 8 Mj).

Good to know that this early. It means I won't waste time caring about WEC anymore until Silverstone and will only follow the series next year if the manufacturers are really close on pace. If they want to use the BS excuse of safety(we already talked about how hypocrite that is when ditching amateur GT drivers would be THE first thing on the safety list), then it should only be applied at Le Mans because of the Grade 2 status. There is no need, at all, to apply such reduction for the other "F1" tracks

My god, what a disgrace ACO/FIA are

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by gustavobamba

I was listening with very curiosity and something come clear to me: They will go "hard" again they will not rest.

In the interview Mr. Alex told that with the new (10 Mj reduced fuel per lap) the cars will lose about 3-4 seconds at Le Mans... but he told that they will reduce that gap by working on aero (they are at the limit in hybrid 8 Mj).

He also suggested that sub 3:20 will be likely again

Not only the aero. They will be "touching" all 5 main areas of the car (Aero, Engine, Hybrid, Tires/Suspension, and Weight).

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Artur

Good to know that this early. It means I won't waste time caring about WEC anymore until Silverstone and will only follow the series next year if the manufacturers are really close on pace. If they want to use the BS excuse of safety(we already talked about how hypocrite that is when ditching amateur GT drivers would be THE first thing on the safety list), then it should only be applied at Le Mans because of the Grade 2 status. There is no need, at all, to apply such reduction for the other "F1" tracks

My god, what a disgrace ACO/FIA are

If you think about it more carefully, cutting down the available energy in a powertrain with a given percentage of efficiency will just spur the engineers on to develop something to try and increase that efficiency and reclaim the lost usable energy by increasing the percentage of the total energy that they can use, and reducing the amount of wasted energy. And so the powertrain development arms race will march on undeterred, maybe even boosted by this cut in available energy.

Let's try to see the positives if possible, shall we?

[J Jay]

I think the engineers will be striving for efficiency regardless; any energy saved ultimately makes the car faster. For instance there was no "spur" due to energy cuts this year and the VAG bros still found 4-5 seconds over last year's cars. But I expect the development to all but wipe out the time loss due to reduced fuel allocation anyway so I don't share the pessimism, certainly not when we haven't even seen the cars on track yet.

[wdave0]

I'm betting they will end up at the same speed as this year through development rather than the 3-4 sec. slower ACO/FIA are looking for with the fuel cut, though maybe the sanctioning bodies are astute enough to recognize that and only want to stop increased speeds ..... nah.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by wdave0

I'm betting they will end up at the same speed as this year through development rather than the 3-4 sec.

I with you on this.

[J Jay]

That's pretty much what I expect as well. If there is to be a significant slowing of the factory cars it looks like it will be left to the new regs.

[Artur]

Wanna know what really ****es me off? I highly suspect this was done, with ACO as doormat, in order to protect FIA's darling series.

I'm pretty sure FIA will do all they can to keep Bernie Ecclestone series as the "pinnacle of racing" as that's the series they most "suck" money from.

FIA would never write rules to allow other series being faster than F1. LMP1-Hs surprised and stunned the world with their gains and FIA, with this knee-jerk reaction, just prevented LMP1 from becoming faster than F1 in 2016, in a few places.

Using common sense, there was no need to intervene already this year. They should've just waited for 2017, when there was always scheduled a rule change, to slow down the cars.

This fuel allocation reduction was not predicted and only done to save F1's reputation, that's my view.

On China, despite the rain, Audi still clocked 1.46.6 during the race(far from ideal rubbered in tarmac condidtions) while F1's fastest lap was 1.42.2. This 4.5s gap would already be totally within reach, with no slowing down, and the real speed of the 2015 cars was even faster there(gap from Audi best QLF and race laps were this: Bahr=2s, CotA=0.5s, Nurb=1.3s, Spa=3s, Silv=0.5s). So, likely that Audi's fastest lap could be at least on the 1.45.5, so just 3.5s from F1

On Bahrain, cars were oddly slow and the 5.5s gap to F1's fastest lap is a bit out of reach.

On Silverstone, with VAGs still on early development(so much that Toyota was close), the gap is of only 3.7s and that could have been seriously reduced with more aggressive tyres alone(no more double stinting there, corresponding to a full F1 GP).

I'm very confident Audi would race confortably faster than F1s there with single stint tyres, this very upgraded aero and the 6MJ jump. FIA just made that unsure now(I reckon they'll lose some 1.5s, of ICE power, at a place like Silverstone)

Even at Spa the LMP1s could've became faster, despite the 5.5s, as, there, they also used way too conservative tyres(Audi even used one set for 2.5 stints). The 3s gap from race to QLF best lap is way greater than in all other rounds(all dry), reflecting the nature of the compounds used. With agressive single stint tires and the new R18, I could dream of Audi lapping on the 1.41s on the race and thus beating F1. That's out of reach now.

Another final detail, Porsche QLF lap at Fuji was just 5s from F1's 2008 QLF record(4s from pole), so that was also within reach of being beaten and it would be no good, at all, for F1's image to have it's 2008 models outpaced by LMP1s even if at a specific track like Fuji

[MoMedic9019]

There is zero question that a P1 car with a slight bit of help with power would demolish an F1 car.

Given the weight differences, that's stunning.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by Artur

Using common sense, there was no need to intervene already this year. They should've just waited for 2017, when there was always scheduled a rule change, to slow down the cars....IF NEEDED

I fixed that for you.

I wish we could get away from the premise that the cars need to be slowed down. As you and I have pointed out in the past, if safety was a real concern, the first thing that the ACO-FiA would do would be to eliminate (not literarily) gentlemen drivers and make the series fully professional (as a World Championship should be). Now we all know that is not going to happen, because tradition and the revenue flow is essential to keeping the series afloat.
There are many, many other measures that can and should be taken in order to make the series safer and to be fair, some of them have indeed been taken. I just wish that we could discuss safety, without automatically reverting to the “slowing down of the cars”. It has almost become a Pavalovian response to the issue of safety. (Which is what the ACO-FiA want). Racing carries a risk, and we as a society are less and less tolerant of risk. One day we will have the pilots walking around the track (in foam padded suits). It will be dull as sin, but the risk of accident will be very, very low indeed.

[Ephaeton]

Originally Posted by Artur

This fuel allocation reduction was not predicted and only done to save F1's reputation, that's my view.

There was always a reduction in the room waiting to happen for up to at most a 10MJ reduction (or so one publication wrote and I'll have to dig it up for you if you insist). Manufacturers knew. Nobody was surprised. It was obviously planned as part of the rules evolution. The only "surprising" thing is that they took the option of reducing the maximum amount of the range they had announced, but then again, as development explodes, it isn't surprising anymore.

Due to you, "because" they want to keep it slower than F1.
The FIA has done that (slowing down racing cars in roundabout all categories) for the past what, two decades now? I don't care why, really. It's just business as usual.

It's your ulcers. There's better (aka worse) developments in WEC that are more worrying and more ulcer-deserving, IMHO, like it becoming more and more of the PR show that FIA wanted it to be when they resurrected the "world championship"...

..and to finally return to PORSCHE (cue thread title), the professional PR show is obvious. Remember pictures of the first pit box walls? Now you've got less and less of a "family" of endurance racing there, and Porsche is one of the main culprits. They really, really wanted their Le Mans win. So I think they decided they don't care if they change the culture of the WEC with pouring their budgets into it and building up the technology center they had to build up... and that's way more worrying than the 2016 Porsche LMP1 car most likely be around as quick as the 2015 one, IMO.

[Victor_RO]

Slightly unrelated to the current LMP, but might be related to the future of Porsche's involvement at Le Mans.

http://www.theverge.com/2015/12/4/98...car-production

So if the claimed advancements in battery capacity and quick charging translate into reality, could a fully-electric Porsche LMP winning Le Mans be closer to reality within the next 10-15 years than we think right now? (and at the same time knocking Formula E's claims to relevance into the middle of next year)