GT2 replaced by GT3 ..... ACO new idea

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by bil588

I just don't want the performance of the cars balanced in a new LMGT class.

Originally Posted by paul-collins

I believe this is the position of IMSA. Whether it will translate well into French is another matter, I suppose

I guess that performance balancing is a matter of perspective. The GT-2 rules are a performance balancer to the point of when the means and want are in place to be able to maximize the car to the rules: read money, ala Porsche and Ferrari, it is somewhat balanced at the top. And currently if it should happen that one of these two create an overwhelmingly superior car then it can be adjusted at anytime (article 19 (pg.21) during the season if the ACO deem it necessary!
And let's not forget that the ALMS/IMSA is much more prone to adjusting things during the season as compared to the ACO.
And let's face it, it is highly likely that next year that we will see neither Spyker or Panoz and it will become a two Marque class.

If the ACO are trying to forestall this from happening, with the inclusion of/ supplantation with the GT-3's, then incentives will be needed (IMO) to keep the diversity of Marques that now compete in GT-3 to step up to GT-2. Read; homologation performance adjustments to keep each entrant within a pre-set range. Otherwise we would see them already! I would not have too much problem with this if it were to be adjusted up and not down, with enough rules latitude to allow for individual teams to do their thing - With no adjustments during the season unless something was extremely awry!
Then that would allow them to make GT-2 into GT-1, with the incentive (sort of) of the new LMP coupes for the current GT-1 protagonists.

I know a little more than just GT-2/3, but was just keeping my ducks in a row.

L.P.

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I guess that performance balancing is a matter of perspective. The GT-2 rules are a performance balancer to the point of when the means and want are in place to be able to maximize the car to the rules: read money, ala Porsche and Ferrari, it is somewhat balanced at the top. And currently if it should happen that one of these two create an overwhelmingly superior car then it can be adjusted at anytime (article 19 (pg.21) during the season if the ACO deem it necessary!
And let's not forget that the ALMS/IMSA is much more prone to adjusting things during the season as compared to the ACO.
And let's face it, it is highly likely that next year that we will see neither Spyker or Panoz and it will become a two Marque class.

1. When has the ACO adjusted the GT2 rules in the recent past? Or do you need to go back to the BMW M3-GTR to find it?

2. When has IMSA adjusted the GT2 rules in the recent past?

I think the basic point that Andrew Cotton makes - that Ferrari sells all the 430GTs and Porsche all the 997s that they can make - shows that the health of GT2-level racing is good. It's up to other manufacturers to take up the challenge, of course, and most of the GT3 competitors have either not bothered or are already running in GT1 or GT2.

I don't see why, if the class itself is healthy in terms of raw numbers, the ACO needs to adjust the marketplace in favour of some illusory concept of diversity. Porsche and Ferrari make money in fielding competitive cars. There's a business case for getting your engineering right.

And, for what it's worth, Ferrari *has* produced a rather better car than the 997 currently is. Porsche will catch up, it's what they do.

[HORNDAWG]

Let me say, that I think we are, somewhat, on the same page. In that neither the ACO or IMSA have made competition adjustments to the rules in GT-2 during the season, per se. But my point being, by rule, they could.

As to the current GT-2. I would agree that Porsche and Ferrari selling all they make is a sign of good class health even if only being between the two. My thought there is how long will this class (rule set) stay as GT-2?
In the overall picture it would not suprise me to see these cars becoming GT-1 and being supplanted by the current GT-3's in GT-2 with some small tweaks to both to allow them to achieve the approx. pace and safety of their class predecessors with some of the mfgs/teams going from GT-3 to GT-1 (Corvette,AM...?).
But because of the diversity of cars (12 models and 11 marques (active)and their performance levels while still allowing them, through fairly easy changes, to compete in FIA GT some homologation performance adjustments will be necessary to keep each entrant within a pre-set range so all may be competitive and participate in both ACO and FIA 'GT'.

L.P.

[paul-collins]

Yes, well, perhaps the problem is with the idea that category 1 is for factories and category 2 is for privateers? I mean, the Corvette (and to a lesser extent AMR) budget preclude any true privateers from competing at Le Mans or in the ALMS - and if the new GT1 (ex GT2) is still aimed at factory competition, the costs will simply escalate again.

Personally, I think that it would be far preferable if Pratt and Miller were encouraged to adopt the Porsche line of thinking for their GT1 machines - sell lots, support them all - instead of running them. (And I think Doug Fehan's talents beg for a move to P1, but that's a whole other story.) I mean, if it's a battle between Tafel and FLMS, or P/WL versus Risi, we don't shrug and say "oh it's just Porsche (or Ferrari) dominance", do we?

The GT1 / GT2 split should be about the machinery, not the teams. IMO. Perhaps that's where we're headed.

[bil588]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

When has IMSA adjusted the GT2 rules in the recent past?

http://www.the-paddock.net/content/view/241522/49/

news before the second race in 2006 ALMS

http://www.americanlemans.com/news/Article.aspx?ID=1914

the article on this page doesn't mention that there are three cars in ALMS LMP1 besides Audi. There aren't any full-time ALMS GT1 teams this year. The ACO should forget about ALMS GT1. Tell IMSA to scrap it.

[paul-collins]

Ok, but in the spirit of fairness, Horndawg was talking about a superior car being legislated back into the pack; in both these cases, the slower (slowest) cars were given a chance to catch up. It sure helped them, too.

[bil588]

one person's opinion on performance balancing

http://www.the-paddock.net/content/view/241932/49/

[paul-collins]

... and I would agree. Welcome to Speed World Challenge.

[supercarS7]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

... and I would agree. Welcome to Speed World Challenge.

Very good analogy.

[AU N EGL]

and the Corvette, GTO, Viper and the occational Mustang teams LOVE the performance balancing IN FAVOR of the Caddies and the Porsches.
Dont be fooled by the term "Performance Balancing."

Performance balancing is not meant to be fair, it is meant too allow the sponsors cars to win. And if you dont believe that try racing in a performance balancing series.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

and the Corvette, GTO, Viper and the occational Mustang teams LOVE the performance balancing IN FAVOR of the Caddies and the Porsches.
Dont be fooled by the term "Performance Balancing."

Performance balancing is not meant to be fair, it is meant too allow the sponsors cars to win. And if you dont believe that try racing in a performance balancing series.

That is rather disingenuous since the ALMS, LMS, ACO nor the FIA GT have a single auto mfgr as series sponsor's or sponsor for LeMans. Which is what is being discussed. Isn't it?!!

L.P.

[archibold]

Interesting discussion. Can anyone confirm that the Corvette GT1 programme is funded for '08 in Europe? My understanding is that it was not yet (but may be by now), removing one of the two main GT1 works teams would force the ACOs hand in my opinion. With no new cars on the horizon (sorry don't agree with those that suggest there are...they take one look at the Aston/'Vette and say no thanks IMHO).

GT2 cars may not have park sensors (as some people seem to suggest makes road cars more sophisticated) but have you examined the 997 GT2's 24 settings of traction control with four steering wheel selectable in race? I'm sure the 430 is similar but not really examined one and I'm sure it's great to twiddle your knob whilst racing but...do we really need this type of technology to go GT racing?

My opinion (and it is only my opinion) is that GT2 will replace GT1 in the next year or two (maybe '08 or '09). GT3 is constantly escalating (I know I drive a Viper that was the car to have last year - at least in competent hands), GT3 will take a step forward again in '08 the lambo is already seeing to that. It seems natural to me that if you want to reduce costs to get more cars (presumably that's why you would do this) then you knock the GT1 class off and let the others shuffle up a bit (GT2/3/4).

Seems logical to me and if it brings 50 car grids a la GT3 to FIA GT, Open GT, ALMS etc etc and improves the quality/class in others why not? The cars will get faster year on year as they develop...that is inevitable at some point you have to reset the levels.

If anyone is at Thruxton this weekend come see us at #17 and we can continue the discussion over a cup of tea.

Archibold

[HORNDAWG]

According to Murphy's post in another thread Corvette Racing is approved through 2010, but I do not believe that it was specific to GT-1. I think it will depend on competition, or lack of, as to where and what class they race in.

GT-2 ALMS w/ a LMS GT-1 support effort (LAA)???????

L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

That is rather disingenuous since the ALMS, LMS, ACO nor the FIA GT have a single auto mfgr as series sponsor's or sponsor for LeMans. Which is what is being discussed. Isn't it?!!

L.P.

Audi and Corvette Racing are two of the "Partenairs Previlage" or sponsors of the ACO.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Audi and Corvette Racing are two of the "Partenairs Previlage" or sponsors of the ACO.

So is Peugeot!
But it is not a single Marques representing/sponsoring the whole thing! And in the case of LeMans (ACO) there are sponsors competing in the same class! And do you truly think that Corvette Racing would be looked at in that way over a French team?!

L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

So is Peugeot!
But it is not a single Marques representing/sponsoring the whole thing! And in the case of LeMans (ACO) there are sponsors competing in the same class! And do you truly think that Corvette Racing would be looked at in that way over a French team?!

L.P.

Yes I guess your right. Now a French team . . . . . .

Just kidding

[JAG]

So long as the ACO considers GT's to be a support act, it makes sense to take control away from manufactures.

P1 Coupes fill the void for manufactures like Maserati, while Corvette can either flex their muscles in P1 or move to a customer model in GT2.

[gwyllion]

According to http://www.pitstoptv.info/pitstop/?p=2621 the FIA meeting in Paris yesterday did not result in any big news. The future plan will be released during the Adria round (September 7-8) and will go in the direction that was described by DSC, with some modifications...

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

while Corvette can either flex their muscles in P1 or move to a customer model in GT2.

OR maybe both.

[Graham Goodwin]

Maybe!

[pitviper]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/mid-engi...-possible.html

this potential news seems to scream LMP1, especially after GM crowing that they won't race a car that isn't "based" off of one of the road cars... well, this could be that roadcar... an LMP1 with styling taken from a car like this... and curious how the time line is for 2010...

pit

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by pitviper

http://www.leftlanenews.com/mid-engi...-possible.html

this potential news seems to scream LMP1, especially after GM crowing that they won't race a car that isn't "based" off of one of the road cars... well, this could be that roadcar... an LMP1 with styling taken from a car like this... and curious how the time line is for 2010...

pit

Well spotted, pit!

I know the rumours about a 'vette LMP1 have been circulating for a while now, especially at Le Mans this year, but yes, everything about that article says 2010 LMP1 to me too. We now have a context within which the project becomes likely/viable.

Exciting prospect!

[The Badger]

That would be brilliant ..... it would be great to see some American manufacturer in LMP1 ..... the series needs it big time .

Be nice to see a European team get 1 as well ..... like LAA !!!

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by pitviper

http://www.leftlanenews.com/mid-engi...-possible.html

this potential news seems to scream LMP1, especially after GM crowing that they won't race a car that isn't "based" off of one of the road cars... well, this could be that roadcar... an LMP1 with styling taken from a car like this... and curious how the time line is for 2010...

pit

This is nothing new and the info has been around for 2 years.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by pitviper

http://www.leftlanenews.com/mid-engi...-possible.html

this potential news seems to scream LMP1, especially after GM crowing that they won't race a car that isn't "based" off of one of the road cars... well, this could be that roadcar... an LMP1 with styling taken from a car like this... and curious how the time line is for 2010...

pit

To expound on the subject there is this article. link But it will only be there until next Wednesday as the new one will come out and this one will disappear.

L.P.