BAR V Jordan - What Should Honda Have Done?

[BootsOntheSide]

In terms of the discussion here, I'd like to to stay firmly on the subject at hand. Debate about Honda v Toyota, Dave V Jacques and Jenson V Jacques has got out of hand on several other threads, and I'd like to see this topic explored in depth.

At the end of 2002, Honda switched from supplying two teams to only one. Do you think they did this correctly?

[Kirk]

As we all know Honda's reputation has been badly tarnished in recent years. Quitting F1 would admit defeat and not be in their best interests. This is particularly important for them now that Toyota are in F1 for the long haul. In the quest to climb back, I think Honda chose the correct path and I expect a vast improvement. Part of me regrets that JV will not reap any of the benefits, as I think they will get it right (sooner rather than later) and will use whatever resources it takes, to that end. I am a little surprised that they did not choose to go it alone but I imagine the thinking was to move as quickly as possible on this before irreparable damage is done. (maybe too late?)

[Mr V]

For Honda to progress significantly, they needed to concentrate on one team only.

Imo, they made the correct decision by staying with BAR, especially, if, in the long run, they are looking to own their own team.

[ralf fan]

well looking at their reliability issues id say its best if they concentrate on BAR only. they can put all their efforts towards the one team which will only mean faster steps forward towards acheiving hopefully their own team.

[jhansen]

I also agree. Honda made the correct choice with backing one team only. This alows them to concentrate efforts in one area and not water down their participation. I believe BAR was also the correct choice. They are more proactive in development and in sponsorship. Over the long run they were the more stable choice. Honda has also been able to establish a stronger relationship with BAR, which will pay dividends in the long run.

[Knowlesy]

They had to back one team only in the end and BAR was the right choice. In the long term, sticking just with Jordan would have been suicidal.

[GTRMagic]

Can I ask for another option?? Told them both to go jump, and hooked up with someone like Sauber....

[neilap]

I felt at the time they chose BAR that Jordan would have been the better choice. Eddie did not want to relinquish some of his power over the team so Honda opted for BAR; that is my understanding anyway. Remember, at the time BAR was getting better support but Jordan was still quicker than them. It was not until the end of the season that Honda made the extra effort to put BAR ahead of Jordan. Silverstone helped too. BAR, while under Pollocks reign was a complete mess. The car was horrible and the motors were underpowered or just a little too experimental to be on the track. Today, because of DR, and Hondas efforts BAR is the much better team and the teams are headed in opposite directions.

From a personal standpoint I would have preffered Jordan because the team had more heart and more spirit. The PR folks at BAR have worked hard on pumping some life into the white cars and now they are begining to get more of a fan base. People are acutally liking the things they do now and are watching their progress. Two years ago BAR could have disappeared and no one would have missed them. In the end I feel the right business decision was made. I think Honda had something to do with the team being revamped; ie. losing Pollock. DR has a lot to do with getting BAR in the press, on the lips of the fans and in the print of the midia. Two years ago I was maybe the only one who even would start a thread about Honda or BAR now they pop up all over the place.

To sum up my book, I feel the hard part is now at hand. DR, Honda, JB, GW and even Sato have all been in the press. All of F1 is in some way waiting to see what BAR can really deliver. All the plans are in place now the must deliver. If not they may have well gone with Minardi and just supplied motors to Mugen for them.

[Super Tourer]

Trouble is that both Jordan and BAR were their 2nd choice of entry. They intended to enter as a factory 'team', but the sudden death of Harvey Postlethwaite who was leading the project, led to Honda seeking a 'compromise' route.

Instead of pushing ahead with their plans to enter as a team, an alleged 'power struggle' within the Honda Motor Company forced through a policy to enter as an engine supplier to BAR only, this was a compromise choice instead of not doing F1 at all.

Honda then added Jordan to the supply deal, presumably as a measure against BAR which was still in it's early development stages - eggs in basket's etc....

As we all know this decision was later reversed, to concentrate on a single effort.

FWIW In the early stages, I don't think it particularly mattered which of the two teams they ran with, for a number of reasons.

1. I believe Honda had their breath taken away by how much the F1 engine game had been raised. Modern F1 cars demanded engines that were high revving, compact and light - yet producing huge power.

2. The 'bolt it on the back' days of F1 engine supply are long gone, now more than ever the design of the engine is such an integral part of the car governing much of the overall design.

3.IMO Jordan and BAR were both too inexperienced to be able to lead a factory engine supply project. They didn't have the strength in depth or 'credibility'. A Patrick Head or Ron Dennis would have forced the development pace from Honda.

4.There was no major partner for Honda to join, neither of 'their' teams was of the calibre of their previous partners like William's or McLaren, but they had no choice.

Moving to a single entry was the only thing they could do, they were simply diluting an already weak effort between two teams.

I think they have made the right choice. BAR has been hiring top flight designer personnel and no doubt has access to Prodrive's, experience and facilties. I think 2004 should see some of the fruit of the past years changes.

[Mr V]

Originally posted by Super Tourer

3.IMO Jordan and BAR were both too inexperienced to be able to lead a factory engine supply project. They didn't have the strength in depth or 'credibility'. A Patrick Head or Ron Dennis would have forced the development pace from Honda.

Definatly agree with this statement. The trouble for Honda of course now is, with 2 of the top 4, Ferrari and Renault, producing their own engine, and the other 2, Williams and McLaren tied in long term with BMW and Merc, what do Honda do?

They want to see results, and quickly, that might not happen as quickly as they would like, if, at all, don't forget, with the exception of the top 4 (When Renny was a Benny) no on has won a championship for 20 or so years.

[GTRMagic]

Why wouldnt Sauber be the team of choice? Osamu Goto is still around isnt he, working on the Ferrari engine upgrades... what better way to leapfrog the field than getting an ex-Honda powerplant expert on the team side to beat the Hondaites over the head when they dont deliver what they promise.

It would be a substantially better option than BAR or Jordan if the US$20m on powerplants went back into hiring the right drivers on top of further chassis development

[Mr V]

Originally posted by GTRMagic
Why wouldnt Sauber be the team of choice?

Wouls sauber have wanted the Honda engines? That would have meant, no more Ferrai engines, and no close relationship with the prancing horse.

[GTRMagic]

If Honda was in competition with Ferrari for Sauber's patronage, I cant see how Sauber would lose from such a contest in the medium term....

[RWC]

Jordan was allways quicker but i think they went the right way with bar.

Really though it don't matter much.Without putting in serious effort themselves they may as well have just gone with minardi...

[Stephen Green]

I can't remember at the moment but had Mike Gascoine already made the decision to leave Jordan before Hond's departure? If so that could have been a major factor in their decision to go purely with BAR.

On the other hand, with the current rules limiting testing, maybe it would have been better for Honda to be linked to two teams? By doing that they may well have overcome some of their reliability problems a little earlier?

[mirwin]

Honda should have started with Jordan in 2000. They were doing well with the Mugen engines, and were a much more established than BAR.

[DriverT]

I think they were right to go with BAR. They have all the big facilities and so the greater chance of succeeding with Honda. Jordan don't have that much.

[GTRMagic]

And which of the 2 are geared up for the 2006 post-tobacco era? Neither... makes Sauber look all the better doesnt it

[DNQ]

BAR were the right way to go. Sure Jordan was fantastic in 1999, but they don't have the facilities of infrastructure to win a WDC. 1999 they did very well, BUT you've got to consider the opposition - Williams were in transition waiting for BMW, and had Zanardi struggling in one car; Benetton were going downhill year by year; Sauber were still boring; Jag/Stewert was still a privateer team; Arrows was using a year old car; Prost and Minardi were hopeless as usual, and BAR were just a mockery. So yeah, I don't want to take away anything from EJ in '99, but basically, Jordan were never going to be that quick again, so IMO, Honda went the right way.

[senna12]

Originally posted by Mr V
Wouls sauber have wanted the Honda engines? That would have meant, no more Ferrai engines, and no close relationship with the prancing horse.

I wonder if Peter Sauber regrets in any way this close relationship with Ferrari. He did not progress at all in '03, and now he has to act as host of the "Rubens replacement" competition at the behest of Ferrari, a decision I suspect he had little to do with.

Honda is better off to concentrate on one team, BAR provides the resources and infrastructure when the time comes to take over from BAT. This would seem a logical progression for them now.

Eddie should probably try to swing for the 10 million dollar Mercedes engines, if he can find the coin.

[twig]

In hindsight i beleive it was the correct decision.

Honda were at risk at becoming yet another engine supplier. It seemed confusing at the time, when Honda decided to drop Jordan in favour of BAR, even though Jordan beat BAR as a constructor.

Jordan has never looked that quick since 2000, their cars seem to have become far slower than the rest of the field, and they are facing the grim future of the back of the Minardi's, unless they get the team heading in the right direction.

BAR on the other hand - seem to have many things working nicely now. The cars look quick, they have the "right" tyres on, with 1 very good driver, and another potent one.

[GTRMagic]

Jordan's issue is one of funding... not sure why, but the car is without that many stickers on it any more... Remember the olden days when Barichello was lead driver, the Jordan had stickers on every square inch of space.

I know EJ thinks he and his team are beyond all that now, but sheesh, if it made the difference between struggling like a bunch onf nohopers, looking for paydrivers and courtcases to keep the budget alive, or swallowing my pride and go deal hustling, and move up the grid, I know which one I would choose...

[senna12]

For sure. Eddie takes a lot of pride in his image as the renegade F1 independant, and his determination to retain control of his team. But there often comes a time, as Magic says, where it becomes necessary to do some deal hustling, and for Eddie, it is now. Otherwise , he is destined for a life of racing against Minardis. Budget and performance are parallel upward lines on any graph.

[Daisy]

Honda chose for BAR, we can't turn in back. I can also open a poll with the question, what would have happend if Jordan and Prost didn't change engines (Prost and Mugen), maybe Jordan was bankrupt and not Prost? We will never know...

[garcon]

The decision to concentrate on one team does seem to be an admission by Honda that they've fallen off the pace a little, b ut it's also a statement of intent that they want to regain that lost ground.

Given that choice, they made the right decision by sticking with BAR. I'm sure Honda will be back among the best before too long, especially with the added incentive of competing with Toyota. And when they are, I hope - even if they stick to one "works" supported team - that they'll be willing to support other teams with customer engines. A decent Honda unit available to the midfield and lower teams can only help improve competitiveness down the grid.