If you could re-invent RallyCross, what would you change?

[bigted]

why have classes, let it be free for all

[Greg Cozier]

Originally Posted by chunder

Greg, really, you honestly dont need 8 bloody classes!

You might have an idea where you are, but that is what we have now, all lowly subscribed and all struggling.

Back to drawing board mate

I agree. What we do here is merge classes which aren't subscribed which helps a bit. That means the S2000 and S1600 could run together (and should be competitive if correctly weighted) as well as the entire lot of Classics. But it also leaves room for the keenest classes to develop.

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by Greg Cozier

Why would the ERC differentiate between FWD and RWD cars? I.e., why is the 2000 class not for all 2ltr cars rather than just RWD?

Good question

[rx-guru]

First of all: Getting rid of the two days for three heats and finals!

Saturday:
Timed Practice, organised as a Rallysprint type stand-alone event.
One car on track only, one warm-up lap, one flying timed lap.
Fastest gets 3 additional championship points, second 2, third 1.

Sunday:
1st Qualifying Heat starts at 11.00h.
Finals start at 16.00h, track closed at 17.00h.

And should no-one tell me this is impossible.
When I started to follow the ERC, in 1974, at all venues the 1st heats started at 13.00h, some with 100+ competitors.
A few years later it was changed to 11.00h, till the British (first) and Norwegians (following) wanted to earn more money from the weekend spectators by cheating the Sunday-only spectators.

[chasing cars]

The Lydden winter series of the 80s and early 90s worked well, still have different classes but run the finals from A final to whatever by how they have performed in the timed heats irrespective of class. Alot of casual spectators just want to see good close racing and have no interest or knowledge of what class a car is and it use to mean that sometimes you would get the spectacle of a small car challenging something much bigger and more powerful. Im sure most drivers would prefer to race a full grid of fairly equal cars rather than 2 or 3 that are in their class but maybe alot slower, as long as they still get their trophy!

Classes should be made to allow for the biggest variety of cars possible, big cars like the scandanavian supernationals are great to watch, currently the ERC is guilty of having 3 classes which basically cater for the same model of cars.

Yeah the joker lap is still not popular with most spectators including myself but I will say that maybe at a circuit like Dreux it works where overtaking is very limited but I agree it shouldnt be used on the first lap and Id say definately not on the last either so that you at least get the chance of a last lap on track battle. I would also say it makes what was an easy to follow made for tv sport very difficult to cover and follow on tv (IMG take note!)

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Clive Brown

Errrm.... It's dark at night, and the cars don't have fully functioning lights. How would the drivers see where they were going?

That's easy to solve: put them headlights! They also help a lot to make the car look real.

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

That's easy to solve: put them headlights! They also help a lot to make the car look real.

Sure but I'm not sure they stay in place very long given current driving standards!

But following the logic... for the clubmen classes what about having a rule that all cars have to be road legal (in other words rally cars)? This might sound daft but hear me out!

It would have the advantage of:

1. Discouraging deliberate contact.
2. Reduce the cost of starting rallycross as no van/ trailer would be needed to get to the track.
3. Car can be stored on the road/ driven to work
4. Car could be used in other forms of motorsport (rallying, sprinting, autocross) with little or no modification.

Worth considering?

[dcdesign]

This wouldn't work for various reasons:

- You don't need to have the trailer to get to the track, but what about the way home? clubmen racers aren't the ones crashing deliberately, they need to pay and repair everything themselves... but a lot of cars isn't roadworthy after the event... Technical breakdowns and the results of close racing went bad (it stays rallycross after all)
- A competition car may be a gimmick to drive to work, but it aint something to do everyday; the engine is set up for power, not for driving low speeds, you don't have any insulation, nor a radio to kill the noise from outside, and it ain't handy, as you only have two bucket seats and your trunk space is reduced due to the rollcage
- And for Belgium atleast, maybe in the UK you can do more conversions... If you want to race for instance a Peugeot 205 GTI, you need a real one, from the factory, as the engine on the papers and in the car has to match, the same for brakes, suspension, tires... So to have a roadworthy Peugeot 1.9 GTI, you need a genuine car, which cost a lot of money, for rallycross, you just take a shell of any 205 (so a crappy 1.0 one, which is basicly for free), and add the technical bits you like. That's why rallycross cars are cheaper then their rally counterparts...

[leonidas]

I take your point but I raised it because a few years ago the 'Roadsport' concept was quite big in circuit racing. Basically you were supposed to drive your competition car to the track and back home again.

I'm not suggesting people would want to use the car everyday but it could be an option for people on very tight budget. People do use mildly modified Endurance rally cars as everyday cars - I guess it just depends how much you want to modify the car. Plus there are plenty of cheap basic rally cars available for around the £2,500 mark if you look carefully enough.

Just trying to think of ways to make it cheaper and get more people involved... I know when I started rallying the trailer and the van cost me a lot more than the car!

[16valve]

do away with joker lap

[schanche]

Time after time we have all discussed this for what we fans would think for the good of the sport, sadly cloud cuckoo land springs to mind! No one would ever take any notice after all what do we know,greater forces maybe at work in rallycross. How long before all championships adopt the new way forward. 2014 and beyond no doubt will be interesting for some.

[Greg Cozier]

Originally Posted by schanche

Time after time we have all discussed this for what we fans would think for the good of the sport, sadly cloud cuckoo land springs to mind! No one would ever take any notice after all what do we know,greater forces maybe at work in rallycross. How long before all championships adopt the new way forward. 2014 and beyond no doubt will be interesting for some.

Except in this case someone with a vested interest and a successful international motor sport promotion record is paying attention.

[schanche]

Originally Posted by Greg Cozier

Except in this case someone with a vested interest and a successful international motor sport promotion record is paying attention.

May well be right, hope so but I'm sure they will earn a lot trying it. Have to wait and see how it progresses until then we wait patiently.

[Westysprinter]

Rally Cross is supposed to be a non contact sport and its worse than touring cars... More penalties and perhaps even bans until its sorted out. With the circuits being short compared to race there are always plenty of marshalls and post chiefs, it shouldnt be difficult...

[dcdesign]

It is Officially a non-contact sport... let 5 cars start abreast, with the first corner 200 m away, and you know contact is inevitable, even a 5-yo knows that. You only got 5 laps to move a place, so holding back at a safe distance is getting you nowhere, you need to be on the bumper of the guy before you, letting him know you're still there, so if he brakes early, there is contact, and no one cares about that, it is still rallycross after all. The only contact you should avoid (and most amateur racers do, as they have to pay for the damage themselves, and mostly repair it themselves too) is deliberately; like getting someone out without braking, or deliberately giving nudges to the corners of the car, causing the driver before you to lose control...

For instance, take a look at this, this vid has al the crashes from last years folkrace at maasmechelen (folkrace = race for people without a rallycross license). Folkrace produces many crashes, because it mostly are guys who are not used to being in a race. Count how many deliberately crashes there were, were you would produce a ban for...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wW9hwy3MjTs

[leonidas]

Originally Posted by schanche

May well be right, hope so but I'm sure they will earn a lot trying it. Have to wait and see how it progresses until then we wait patiently.

I don't have a problem with people making money out of rallycross as long as they put something back.

The problem in recent years has been the obsession with 'professionalising' rallycross - in other words obsessing about TV coverage and supercars while allowing the grassroots of the sport to gradually die out.

If I was writing a strategy for the development of the sport I'd be looking for 'bottom up' as well as 'top down' solutions. First thing I'd do is develop a partnership with autocross and help build that up as a way in to rallycross. Look back to the 70s and rallycross really built upself up on the back of autocross.

Also what about autograss participants? There are a lot of autograssers - perhaps class 1 and 2 autograss cars could be invited to rallycross meetings?

[Janneman]

Originally Posted by leonidas

I don't have a problem with people making money out of rallycross as long as they put something back.

The problem in recent years has been the obsession with 'professionalising' rallycross - in other words obsessing about TV coverage and supercars while allowing the grassroots of the sport to gradually die out.

If I was writing a strategy for the development of the sport I'd be looking for 'bottom up' as well as 'top down' solutions. First thing I'd do is develop a partnership with autocross and help build that up as a way in to rallycross. Look back to the 70s and rallycross really built upself up on the back of autocross.

Also what about autograss participants? There are a lot of autograssers - perhaps class 1 and 2 autograss cars could be invited to rallycross meetings?

You really mean that, autocross? In Holland they took that route and it has brought nothing. Not one driver from autocross promoted to rallycross.

On the other side, in Belgium they have the VAS competition. Three classes and 100 participants each event. It's much more low budget, mainly because all safety equipment does not have to apply to the latest standard. Don't get me wrong it's still safe as long as you agree that a seat or suit that is out-homologated is still safe.

Even more cheaper in Belgium are the folksraces (100+ participants). Cars and personal equipment are about the same standard as in VAS but you don't need a license. There are a lot of examples from people (even nowadays Supercar drivers) who got a taste in Folksrace, drove VAS for a while and then promoted. For what I've seen it's by far the best way to get new drivers.

Regards,
Jan

[The SpeCTator]

Another vote for do away with the joker lap at circuits that do not need it, eg Lydden.

Followed Rallycross since Vic Elford at Lydden all those years ago, saw the joker lap for the first time and have never been back.

[FIRE]

Just a few ideas:

Technical
- Super1600 - no changes
- Touringcars - more like Supernational, so more power and bigger cars (e.g. - Mondeo instead of Fiesta)
- Supercars - more power and less electronics so cars are more difficult to drive.

General
- Better promotion, especially online and TV.
- Less deliberate contact.
- Each heat 1 or 2 laps extra, finals 3 or 4 laps extra.
- Depending on track no joker lap.

[schanche]

2013 provisionaly sorted already early enough for folk to plan there particapation.
http://www.rallycrossuk.com/documents/BRC01.pdf

[Greg Cozier]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Just a few ideas:

Technical
- Super1600 - no changes
- Touringcars - more like Supernational, so more power and bigger cars (e.g. - Mondeo instead of Fiesta)
- Supercars - more power and less electronics so cars are more difficult to drive.

General
- Better promotion, especially online and TV.
- Less deliberate contact.
- Each heat 1 or 2 laps extra, finals 3 or 4 laps extra.
- Depending on track no joker lap.

All good points. Regarding the 2ltr class, would not the high weight limit (1100Kgs with driver) encourage larger cars anyway? Would not removing the differentiation between FWD and RWD across the board stir things up a bit?

[AndyS]

Originally Posted by Greg Cozier

Would not removing the differentiation between FWD and RWD across the board stir things up a bit?

Certainly would if you just had one Super National class anything goes 2WD N/A.

One of the biggest grumbles in recent times has been the way the sport is increasingly ignoring the clubman. You've only got to read some of the posts on here to see that there's a huge market for drivers wanting to have a go. Sure have your 2 or 3 classes for those with medium to large budgets but make sure there are some budget classes as well.

A lot of motor sport now has become the exclusive play ground of the wealthy, particularly for youngsters wanting to start out. I understand you need quite a lot to even go karting these days. It would be nice to see a sport that allows younger drivers, not just juniors but drivers in their late teenage years or even early twenties, to come and compete very cheaply and have the opportunity (talent permitting) to work their way up and maybe even end up with a professional career out of it. Likewise older drivers who've always wanted to have a go to have the opportunity to have some fun and maybe in time gradute to a higher class if they can get some budget together.

[dcdesign]

Originally Posted by AndyS

Certainly would if you just had one Super National class anything goes 2WD N/A.

One of the biggest grumbles in recent times has been the way the sport is increasingly ignoring the clubman. You've only got to read some of the posts on here to see that there's a huge market for drivers wanting to have a go. Sure have your 2 or 3 classes for those with medium to large budgets but make sure there are some budget classes as well.

A lot of motor sport now has become the exclusive play ground of the wealthy, particularly for youngsters wanting to start out. I understand you need quite a lot to even go karting these days. It would be nice to see a sport that allows younger drivers, not just juniors but drivers in their late teenage years or even early twenties, to come and compete very cheaply and have the opportunity (talent permitting) to work their way up and maybe even end up with a professional career out of it. Likewise older drivers who've always wanted to have a go to have the opportunity to have some fun and maybe in time gradute to a higher class if they can get some budget together.

In Belgium we have, and it shows that it is really needed; the amateur races at maasmechelen draw over 200 drivers, and the regional championship also caters for almost 100 drivers

[chunder]

Lets face it even in the glory days of the 70's and 80's was rallycross ever that cheap for the low budget driver?

Formula C was a no holds barred modified class, even in something like a Mini or Fiesta! You could compete with something else but in both cases you needed at least a 1380 Mni or a decent spec flow and gearbox, hardly budget level! Formula B the same, you wouldnt have got anywhere with a Pinto in an Escort would you you would have been having a go, but not really competitive.

Stock Hatch was great initially until they stopped or gave up policing it properly and drivers starting taking the mick wth tyres and things.

Minicross is the best alternative, though ab it harder to get into now with the cost of running a Min.

I dont think rallycross has ever been particlarly cheap, ERC was cheapish with the 1400's. But a a national level we need a Bilcross or something like they have in Europe where you can run something very cheap and standard, toughen it up a bit for longevity and off you go

[winnie]

I started watching rallycross about 25 years ago at the brands gp when schanche first had his 4x4 escort and there is no comparision from that to modern rallycross, which to be honest i haven't watched for at least five years. I can watch 20 minutes on tv, but then generally turn over.

I can't even start to explain where it has gone wrong. The modern cars are so boring to watch, and i include the current super cars. The modern super car has no charactor, they all look the same, they all sound the same, they all accelerate the same, they all brake the same, they all turn in the same - no wonder there is so much contact.

One comment on the Joker Lap - get rid of it. Rallycross is all about action, close racing. The joker lap splits the cars up, it lets a faster driver get past a slower driver without the spectator seeing any over taking.

Rallycross only needs 5 classes.

Class 1 - any body shell, 4 wheel drive, any engine any size in original position, turbo if you want and different weight limit for engine size / turbo etc.

Class 2 - any body shell, 2 wheel drive, any engine in original position over 1600cc, no turbo, min weight limit say 1000kg

Class 3 - any body shell, 2 wheel drive up to 1600, no turbo, maybee allow bike engines, maybee allow mid engine, min weight say 750kg

Class 4 - introductory class, maybee stock hatch or one make series, but only one class

Class 5 - historic rallycross / rally cars, say pre 1990. Strictly no contact and run in groups of 4.

Thats it, no other classes, no buggies and no nippers. I would proberbly race class 2 and 3 together as people want to see david v golieth type races.

End of year gp - all cars in together, prize for overall winner and best 2wd.

The only other thing it needs is bigger penalties / bans for contact. Most of the cars are run on a tight budget, and body repairs cost a fortune.

I think british rallycross needs to be promoted by some-one who does not own a circuit and does not compete in rallycross. Rounds need to be split north, south and midlands.

Don't think most competitiors are bothered about having to pay for it to be on tv. If the product is good, the tv will pay to film it.