Tilke-Designed Circuits

[Purist]

With all the talk about the race venues lately, I thought we'd have a look at the Tilke tracks. We've had some time with them (11 seasons in the case of Sepang), and seven fresh-sheet-of-paper designs from him on the schedule. There are at least two more looking relatively likely to join in the next few seasons as well: India and Korea.

For a starter, which of the seven from-scratch designs do you think is the best, or just the least painful?

Perhaps more importantly though, what features from the tracks do you like? What are the main problems that you see in their designs? What trends do you see in what works and what doesn't? Here, it would be fine, and in fact encouraged, to look at features from non-Tilke tracks to establish broader patterns or to draw examples from.

Before I let you guys have at it, there are two items I have literally just found out about. First, there are apparently only four track designers recognized by the FIA. Though the article I read this in did not specifically mention all of them, I have a pretty darn good idea of who they are: Tilke Engineering (Hermann Tilke), Apex Circuit Design (Clive Bowen), Wilson Motorsport (Alan Wilson), and D3 Motorsport Development (Ron Dickson).

The second item ought to shed some light on things, sounds rather damning, and will probably tick some people off at some level. The website for the Tilke-designed MotoGP circuit in Kazakhstan includes an interesting bit of information. Apparently, Hermann Tilke's designs receive automatic certification by the FIA; everyone else must have their designs exposed to intense scrutiny by the FIA before they may be approved.

(P.S. I intended there to be a poll with this, but I've seen no options to add one at any stage, and yes, I checked the FAQ. A little help here? Thanks.)

[ECW Dan Selby]

That's interesting stuff. I'm a little bamboozled at the whole automatic FIA clarification thing mind you, but interesting, nonetheless!

What are some of the tracks these other companies/designers have done, out of interest?

Selby

[Yannick]

Here is a link to the website of Bureau Tilke http://www.tilke-ac.de/3_0/3_1/1_0.p...projid=1200-01
showcasing those of his tracks or buildings on previously existing tracks, to showcase which tracks we are talking about.
Unfortunately, the site does not include that proposal for a South African track for F1 by Tilke, which I think was his worst design. Maybe one of you knows what I mean and can post a link?

Your poll idea is a good one. Me, for example, I would not consider Tilke's track edits of A1-Ring, Hockenheim and Fuji as original designs, because he did not start these circuits with a white sheet. I'll wait for your poll before I go into further detail about his designs that F1 is currently racing upon.

Still, I'm somewhat surprised that the FIA trust Bureau Tilke so much that they don't need to undergo the scrutineering process in the same intensity as the other track designers do.

[Purist]

Dubai Autodrome was designed by Apex. They're also behind Eurasia Autodrome, as well as the original Singapore street circuit design, and F1 upgrades for Eastern Creek, Brasilia, Jacarepagua, and Silverstone. Apex is also behind the new French Grand Prix circuit near Paris. Take a look at their project allery.
http://www.apexcircuitdesign.co.uk/

Their site hasn't been updated recently, but D3 did the renovation design work for Mexico City and the design for the Monterey, Mexico circuit. Their credits also include the Rockingham (UK) oval, Surfers Paradise (CART), the Marrakech street circuit (WTCC), Durban (A1GP), and the F1 proposal for Cancun.
http://www.d3motorsport.com/D3Motorsport.html

Wilson Motorsport leans more toward bike and club type circuits in a lot of cases. Alan Wilson designed Barber, Miller, Arizona, Carolina, and BeaveRun Motorsports Parks, just to name a few. Internationally, he did the design for the Comp-Speed F1 track that was planned to be built near Beijing, and he has tracks in India; Nelson, New Zealand; and Injae, Korea on the drawing board.
http://www.wilsonmotorsport.com/

Hope all this helps you guys, and maybe inspires some good ideas.

[Marbot]

Rumour has it that Tilke is shortly to build a circuit that disappears up his own..

I have often wondered whether it would would be better to get someone like Jack Nicklaus to design the circuits?

[MrTTraces]

Originally Posted by Marbot

Rumour has it that Tilke is shortly to build a circuit that disappears up his own..

I have often wondered whether it would would be better to get someone like Jack Nicklaus to design the circuits?

And Tilke to design Golf Courses?

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by MrTTraces

And Tilke to design Golf Courses?

Yeah, I'd be interested to see if he could make it even more dull

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Purist

For a starter, which of the seven from-scratch designs do you think is the best, or just the least painful?

Sepang.

It flows, but has several overtaking spots and normally produces a decent race. IMO it is the finest modern circuit, certainly on the F1 calendar.

[Sodemo]

Probably either Istanbul or China. I loved the few banked corners present at both of these tracks, they add such character, shame about the run offs though.

Would love to see a track full of long straights, fast sweepers and banked hairpins like Tarzan at Zandvoort.

[jab]

I tend to think Istanbul is one of the most overrated circuits on the calendar. It's a one corner circuit. The rest isn't really that special

I've actually grown to like Sakhir. It offers something different - a circuit in the desert. It usually provides good racing, and there are some great challenging corner sequences and elevation changes. I find Sepang and Shanghai a bit dull and much of a muchness. Abu Dhabi is very good but due to setting more than anything. Valencia is pap and Korea looks like following it. The A1-Ring, new Hockenheim and Fuji were pretty poor edits, although I accept he was restricted in what he could do

And for Yannick, here's the Cape Town proposal, which I don't think looks too bad at all. Shame it didn't come off

[Yannick]

Sepang

Although initially hosting a few races that were a bit dull, Sepang has redeemed itself as something of a far-Eastern neo-classic. In part, that is down to the race having been held regularly for a while now, so the special difficulties of the track are known amongst both the fans and the paddock people by now. Another part of that is that Tilke has not recycled significant elements from this track for later designs of his. And the most exciting part is something that no architect could ever build: its high humidity which is unique on the F1 calendar. That gives the sportsmen and their engines a special challenge, kind of like what the high altitude and thin air of Mexico City used to do.
Overtaking can happen into Turns 15, 1 and 4. It looks like the circuit has helped the sport a lot in Malaysia, which is proven by the appearance of Alex Yoong in the series and by the new Lotus works effort.

Shanghai

Shanghai with its megalomanic pitlane bridge building, was modeled after the blot shape of a Chinese letter, which already compromised the track design somewhat. The unique features of the track are the two shell-shaped corners, Turn 1-2 and 12-13. It is probably here where Hermann Tilke decided that a circuit must invite drivers making errors to be a good track, which I don't believe in. Anyway, the circuit is somewhat similar to Sepang in that it is located on relatively flat land, has two long straights with its overtaking points at the end of each (Turn 1 and Turn 13), and the rest of the track (Turn 4 to Turn 11) has got a little bit of everything, but mostly fast sweepers that require aerodynamic efficiency. It is this section, the 2nd time sector, that makes it boring to watch. Even though new, the track has already got a bit of history with Michael Schumacher never really coming to grips with it and Lewis Hamilton losing valuable points in the pitlane's own gravel trap.

Sakhir

The Sakhir Circuit shows Tilke has now put his focus on overtaking. It is here where he introduced on a large scale what was going to become the main feature of his future designs: sharp corners preceded by long straights, to promote overtaking. And in Nico Rosberg's first race at the circuit, that worked like charm, to the excitement of the viewers. Still, the many sharp corners don't give the track's first two sectors much of a flow, but that is its unique character. That is somewhat being balanced by the run up the hill in the 3rd sector and the final straight, which look like fun. Also, the location in the middle of the desert guarantees that no noise pollution occurs and that the paddock crowd are on their own, just like in Magny-Cours. Unique weather conditions that no other GP on the calendar can produce, are beneficial to the spectacle as well. It shall be interesting when the first sandstorm coincides with a race weekend. But what this track really misses is a good crowd.

Cape Town proposal (not built)

This design looks like it is meant to be run clockwise. There is only one distinct overtaking opportunity that can be seen at the bottom of the design, Turn 3, despite the inclusion of several sharp corners and several long straights. It has also got a few long sweepers and a few Esses thrown in for "good measure", but that just seems random with this design. Corner shapes aren't nearly as inventive as you'd hope they would be. It's good that they did not build this one.

Kurtkoy

Located in a rural area south of Istambul, near the village of Kurtkoy, there resides Bernie Ecclestone's property, the Istambul Otodrom. Since it is the first major Tilke circuit involving significant amounts of elevation changes, it was welcomed with open arms on the calendar. The quadruple apex Turn 8 with its intricate camber changes throughout has been hailed as Tilke's masterwork so far, and probably rightly so. Turn 10 is a common source for driver error and is a neo-classic by now as well. The long kinked backstraight is another great feature of this track. But the 1st sector borrows heavily from the Senna-S at Interlagos and the final 3 sharp corners that link the backstraight to the front straight are essentially just a dog leg. The unique feature of having the starting line in the middle of the braking zone for Turn 1 has already taken out Giancarlo Fisichella in both the inaugural and the subsequent event, so there really must be something about Tilke's idea of a circuit causing many driving errors being a good circuit ;-)

Valencia Marina

This track is of a different concept since it's a nonpermanent facility located on public streets, or so it read on paper. In reality, it turned out that the houses on those city streets were mostly still being built by the time that the inaugural race was being held and that the atmosphere was like racing at a building site. With its overabundance of corners, Tilke has taken his concept of "a track that leads to driver error is a good track" to the extreme: there is no track on the calendar today, which has more corners than this one. Yet, the races proved to be incredibly dull so far. I can only hope that changes with the abolishment of fuel stops. The main reason I see for this is the stop and go nature of the track and the high aero efficiency required by those two long left-handers that lead out onto the two straights that culminate at the circuit's two main would-be-overtaking opportunities.
Also, I have read reports from spectators that were there that there are some grandstands that have seating from which you can see basically nothing because it is located below track level. That is ludicrous. And when you look at the track diagram, what exciting things are spectators meant to see from the grandstands T12 to T17?

Singapore

Singapore, despite only having hosted 2 events, already is a favourite among the new locations, mainly because its inaugural event was a good race, despite looking on TV like they were racing through a parking garage, with all the concrete and artificial lighting. The track is now known all over the world for its bumpiness and the crash-gate scandal, the most famous corners being the bumpy overtaking spot that is named Turn 7 in the graphic, the funny little chicane in front of the City Hall and Piquet Corner, the turn where the before mentioned spun into the wall in front of the crowd on the seating gallery. This is one of the rare Tilke tracks that tends to produce good races despite being of the stop-start nature that comes with it being a street circuit. The track passing under a grandstand is a feature that Tilke later reprised in Abu Dhabi where he built a grandstand over a runoff area.

Yas Marina Circuit

This track has Tilke reprising old ideas into a new location: long straights culminating in sharp corners for overtaking, huge buildings under which the track passes through, sweepers that require aero efficiency, a multi-apex corner consisting of straights and kinks, a stadium section (see his contribution to Nürburgring), street circuit styled right angled corners, a surprise in the pitlane. These things seemingly do work to some extent as they are supposed to, but still, they don't make the track flow well or make it unique in any way.

the South Korean design

Another anti-clockwise circuit, this consists of a permanent facility and a nonpermanent loop attached to it. I don't like the look of the street circuit part at all. It's so Valencia. Still, I don't want to comment further until I have actually seen a race from the facility.

Honorable mentions of other Tilke tracks for completeness' sake:
-Pinto
-Motorland Aragon
-Kazakhstan Motorcity (which is the rare Tilke circuit that looks like it has a good flow of corners)

My pick for his best track in F1 would be the controversial Sakhir because it is unique, closely followed by Sepang. I don't think that any designer can claim authorship to a street circuit, hence the Singapore track is not included in my voting.

[Purist]

Seeing as how nobody's filled me in on how to actually do a poll on here, I guess we can do this the old-fashioned way, for the time being at least.

The 7 tracks eligible for the poll here for which is the best (or least worst) Tilke F1 track are:
1. Sepang, Malaysia (1999)
2. Sakhir, Bahrain (2004)
3. Shanghai, China (2004)
4. Istanbul/Kurtkoy, Turkey (2005)
5. Valencia, Spain (2008)
6. Marina Bay, Singapore (2008)
7. Yas Island, Abu Dhabi, UAE (2009)

I have no problem with discussion of Tilke's other tracks, particularly his other F1, or F1 capable, proposals, but please keep the rating/polling to the seven listed above.

For the other Tilke F1 proposals:
1. Cape Town, South Africa (2006)
2. Korean Int'l Circuit (2010)
3. Jaypee, India (2011)
4. Moscow Raceway, Russia (2011)

[Fox89]

1. Sepang, Malaysia (1999)
2. Sakhir, Bahrain (2004)
3. Shanghai, China (2004)
4. Istanbul/Kurtkoy, Turkey (2005)

For my part, I actually like all 4 of these. Sepang and Istanbul are my favourites! So that's just over half of his circuits on the F1 calender just gone. Which isn't too bad to be honest.

[JHamilton]

Istanbul is a great track. Turn 8 needs a name.

[V8 Fireworks]

It's just all wrong.

Take a classic road that was race on in the 30s or 40s. Put up some barriers and some gravel traps.

Presto, a grade 1 race circuit not a grade 1 pit building!

[Purist]

I suppose, since I started this one, that I should speak my piece as well.

I'll have to disagree with some here in saying that Bahrain is actually at the bottom of my list. Those long straights into hairpins haven't produced anything like the amount of overtaking I would have expected. There are rather few high-speed corners, and the track just doesn't have a very good overall flow or rhythm. It's quite flat as well, and there are some niggly corners that perhaps don't quite fit where they are and/or mess up overtaking into the corner following (especially the esses Turns 5-7 before the hairpin at 8, and Turn 9 before the hairping at 10).

Shanghai has some very interesting, even very good, portions, but they don't all fit together right to my eye, and again, the long straight into a hairpin hasn't produced the overtaking that I certainly though it would. The bits that particularly bug me are Turns 9-11 and 14-16, and especially how they don't seem to fit in with what's around them. Thankfully Shanghai seems less flat than Bahrain, and there is some green around the track. And no, a desert track isn't inherently a bad thing in my book, as I do like Riverside and Willow Springs.

Valencia had real potential, but there are too many niggly little kinks and bends in most of the "straights" for things to work out as intended. If they have space, they should have the "straight" from Turn 3 effectively bypass Turns 4-6. That long stretch on the waterfront would be a lot better if the track was aligned straighter after Turn 11 to give a more clearly defined racing line, and so that the cars weren't seemingly going through a series of esses made by the walls in that section (approaching Turn 12). The same could be said for the run leading from Turn 16 to 17. I do like the high-speed sequence before the hairpin at Turn 25 though. It would also help liven up the look of the place if they painted up the buildings like the barrios in Buenos Aires.

Singapore is definitely good for a street circuit. What really helps with overtaking at Turn 7 is having the long run before it to slipstream some, the bumps that unsettle the cars, and the variety of lines you can take through Turn 5 that can give you more exit speed than the guy ahead of you. I do wish they'd just make a medium-speed left-hander at 10, instead of that chicane, since Turns 11-12 keep speeds over the Anderson Bridge down anyway. I also think they would have space to pretty much straight-line Turns 15-17 to give a longer run into Turn 18 (where they turn under the grandstand).

Abu Dhabi does get a boost from just the sheer scale and impressiveness of everything around it, but it is very important to note that, in this case, the long straights into tight corners at 8 and 11 actually worked to give some real scope for overtaking (thank goodness for that). And the few sweepers are nice, but at the same time, all the angular corners ensure that none of those less flowing turns look out of place particularly.

Sepang has a decent flow to it. There are a number of quick corners. It has some elevation change, though the TV cameras aren't usually very good at showing it. This is one track whee I actually think a more sinuous start/finish "straight" might actually help overtaking.

I give my vote, and at this point, top honors for an F1 Tilke circuit to Istanbul. And no, Jab, I do not find Turkey to be a one-turn racetrack. It has decidedly more elevation change than any of Hermann's other original efforts, and overall, it flows as well as any of his tracks, even Sepang. Aside from Turn 8, there is some overtaking potential at Turn 9, and a reasonably good shot at it at the end of that long backstretch. A number of the corners come together to make for an interesting variety of viable racing lines in different areas. And although it's nothing special at all, I cannot think of another way to end the lap that would be better for the racing or fit with the rest of the track that much better either.

This is good. I'm going to take another look at some of Tilke's other works, I think.

[Purist]

V8, FIA Grade 1 requires the run-offs and more than just guardrails for solid barriers, and as long as Bernie is at the helm, those insane facilities are a prerequisite for consideration for a Grand Prix as well.

Hopefully, that second part will change, as Bernie cannot live forever, and he's no spring chicken anymore.

I must admit though that some of this is puzzling. Yes, Tilke is an architect, which helps explain the detail of the facilities, but the man frequently drives and races on the Nordschleife. It really is strange then though, what comes out of his head for the actual racetracks he designs.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

It's just all wrong.

Take a classic road that was race on in the 30s or 40s. Put up some barriers and some gravel traps.

Presto, a grade 1 race circuit not a grade 1 pit building!

Yeh i'd be interested to know whether this to a certain degree could work. I mean i'm trying to think of some good examples of some tracks that are still about...

Selby

[Yannick]

The one thing that Tilke seemingly does not want to consider in his designs is the fact that when you are on track, running down a straight behind your opponent, you don't necessarily need a 1st or 2nd gear corner at the end of that straight to outbreak your opponent. Even a 4th gear corner will do, just look at Stowe Corner of Silverstone. Other examples of overtaking spots that are not hairpin-shaped are the first corner of Suzuka with its possibility of multiple racing lines (a Hugenholtz design), the Tarzan Bocht / Turn 1 at Zandvoort with its possibility of multiple racing lines (another Hugenholtz design). Or take for example Les Combes at the end of that long uphill straight at Spa, which is somewhat similar in structure to the Turn 1 and 2 combination from Barcelona/Montmelo. The DTM race at Dijon Prenois this year has proven that even this fast sweeper at the end of the front straight enables overtaking if the rest of the track allows the cars to be set up for it, which in this case means it must consist of more fast sweepers. Comparable to that corner would be the turn at the end of that long backstraight of Jacarepagua.

Another paramount overtaking spot that is neither a hairpin nor a chicane, is the Parabolica of Monza. And Monza is the prime example of another theoretical concept that has contributed to Tilke's designs, but does not seem to be so true after all: Tilke thinks you need to have a track that is hard to drive to produce good racing. Valencia Marina arguably is one of those whereas Monza is rather on the less demanding side when it comes to driving skills (or so they say - I must say it's rather easy on simulators).
So my theory goes like this: when a circuit is relatively easy to drive, a driver can focus more on racing his opponents, whereas with a tricky beast like Valencia Marina, he must concentrate on not making errors - and would therefore prefer to rely on pit strategy for gaining positions. Hence, easier tracks might do the trick of providing better racing.
For some more examples of overtaking spots that are similar to Monza's Parabolica, feel free to look at the design of the old Österreichring. There are several fast sweepers in there that are suitable for making a passing move at speed - and not a single 1st gear corner.

The number of low downforce circuits in F1 is too small these days. That's why Indianapolis was refreshing despite its Mickey-Mousey infield.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Very interesting views there, Yannick.

I must say I really agree with you in regards to making the tracks overly complicated and that taking away from ambitious overtakes. I realy do think that's true.

What you're saying in a nutshell is sometimes simplicity is the way forward?

Selby

[Quintin03]

I must correct Yannick: even though John Hugenholtz was involved in the building of Zandvoort he didn't design it. The design was done by a pre war le mans winner. John was involved in safety only. He was the circuit's director in 1948-1973 after which the corner preceding the "Hunserug" was named after him.
He did design the never realised pre war grand prix circuit at Zeist.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Got an image of that one by any chance, Quintin?

I'm certainly a fan of some of his tracks from what i've been told

Selby

[Tim the Grey]

I just get confused between Tilke tracks. They all look the same. At least in the old days I could tell where a photo was taken because every track was different...

[Mr Pink]

Great post Yannick! Agreed 100%.

One thing that strikes me about Tilke designs is that instead of looking at the location where the track is going to be built and adapting the design to it, he seems to prefer to adapt the terrain after the design.

[miatanut]

Originally Posted by Purist

Singapore is definitely good for a street circuit. What really helps with overtaking at Turn 7 is having the long run before it to slipstream some, the bumps that unsettle the cars, and the variety of lines you can take through Turn 5 that can give you more exit speed than the guy ahead of you. I do wish they'd just make a medium-speed left-hander at 10, instead of that chicane, since Turns 11-12 keep speeds over the Anderson Bridge down anyway. I also think they would have space to pretty much straight-line Turns 15-17 to give a longer run into Turn 18 (where they turn under the grandstand).

Singapore is the only track that has been added the last few years that I find interesting. The bumps are part of it. It has nice flow, and it's got walls right next to the racing line, which is never considered acceptable these days in permanent circuits (Champion's Wall at Montreal would never be allowed in a new circuit, for example), and those things give it character, which is so missing from the permanent circuits.

Originally Posted by Purist

It really is strange then though, what comes out of his head for the actual racetracks he designs.

I think it's the FIA rules that cause that.

I wonder if anyone has heard any quotes from Jackie Stewart that perhaps the track safety movement he started has been carried a bit too far? I haven't heard anything to that effect, and maybe he figures it would undermine his legacy if he ever said anything to that effect.