The real beginning of F1 in 1946 ?

[AUSTRIA]

My knowledge up to now was, that the first F1 (or Formula A) -race was in the year 1947. Now in Quintin Clouds notes on pre-championship race results he has added the notice 'First Formula 1 result' while reporting the GP del Valentino / turin on 1. Sept. 1946 !!!

My two questions: Is this right and over which period formula 1 was called formula A?
Who knows?

[jarama]

I think this is the response to your question over the periods: 1938-46, Formula A.
From 1947 on, Formula 1.

If I'm right, the races in 1945 and 1946 -including the G.P.del Valentino, Turin- were held under the Formula A name, and the first Grande Épreuve under the Formula 1 name would be the Swiss G.P., Bremgarten, 1947-08-06. Before this race, there were other meetings under the name of G.P. mainly in France (Pau, Roussillon, Marseille, Nîmes)...

[Peter Mallett]

An interesting question Austria.

Some research is needed here.

Jarama,

Many races have been called "Grand Prix" but they have not necessarily been F1 or FA. Keep looking chaps 'cos as we all know there was somethin that restricted motor racing during that period. Although I believe the Italians ran some major events up to about 1944.

[AUSTRIA]

As you say, Peter, some more research is needed. It is interesting for me, that - if I'm right - exactly till the Race at Circuit de Trois Ville (25.8.1946, vict. Sommer/Louveau on maserati 8CL!)- mostly in each race there entered at least one car of the "old formula: 3 lt. supercharged, maybe called Formula A" as f.e. the Maserati 8CL or the Alfa Romeo 308. Exactly from the next race in Valentino (1.9.1946) this cars havn't been seen ever more in a GP. Probably Quintin Cloud is right? And who says, that from Valentino GP on every non-WC-race was a F1 race?

[AUSTRIA]

Hallo Peter and jarama, here I'm again.

Here I summarize my investigations:

Early in the year 1946 the FIA intoduced the rules for the new 'Formula A' to be started with the beginning of the 1947-season !

But the organisers of the Valentino-GP decided to run their race according to those new rules yet in 1946. Further the organizers of Circuito di Milano and of the GP Salon followed doing the same.

So we can recognize, that there were three races in 1946, based on the formula A rules, thought there was no official formula A in 1946this year

jarama: formula A was not existing before 1946! It was the beginning of formula 1, as I assumed. But I don't know, when came the change from the 'Formula A' to the 'Formula !' Maybe it was the opportunity of starting the world championship. If I can find any detailed information, I will post it here, as you might, if you find out.

So long

E.T.

[AUSTRIA]

My last additional notice to this topic:

As I mentioned above, 'Formula A' was the name of F1, when it was established by FIA.

The name was changed to 'Formula 1' late in 1947 and generally being referred to as such by late 1948. Only a very few still referred to it as Formula A by 1949 - and even the FIA finally caved in that year.

In 1948 the FIA added 'Formula B' and it was universally called 'Formula 2' by the Spring of 1949.

Later 'Formula 3' (500ccm) followed named 'Formula C' first.

I'm able to inform you all of this only with the help of Felix Muelas and Don Capps. Thanks to both.

E.T.

[Paul Jeffrey]

'Austria' is right. You should read Paul Sheldon's magnificent A Record of Grand Prix and Voiturette Racing Vol 4. When racing started after the war anything went (i.e free formula or Formula Libre). The German 3 litre supercharged cars were both indisposed and banned (German particapation was outlawed until 1950) leaving a handful of second rate 4.5 unsupercharged pre-war Grand Prix cars plus the odd remaining 3 litre (e.g Wimille's Alfa 308). Organisers invited the 1.5 litre supercharged voiturette class (second division) to make up the numbers but the smaller cars proved more than a match for the heavier 4.5 litre cars until Ferrari started winning races in 1951.

Some 1946 races chose to race to the 1.5s/4.5u/s equivalency rule which became the norm in 1947. The FIA formalised the situation at the end of '47 by announcing Formula 1 or A (and also Formula 2/B - without the laater you would not have the former name!). So it was not until 1948 that Formula 1 officially came into existence, Nello Pagini winning the first F1 race at Pau for Maserati.

[marcus]

I have found reading this topic very interesting but have not replied because I dont have a clue about it..but it is good to know that people out there do I guess.

but I do have a question.

If a driver drove in Formula 1 before the start of the world championship in 1950 in all the record books do these races count towards the guys total starts , wins etc....

for example if he drove in 10 pre 1950 gps and ten world championship races will it be counted as 20 grand prix starts or just 10?

I have always wondered this ..does anyone know the answer.?

[Peter Mallett]

Its quite simple really.

Drivers are credited with Grand Prix starts and World Championship GP starts.

Ascari's and Villoresi's records would show this.

[allenbrown]

Peter

I think it depends which record book you read. I can find few that count anyting outside the world championship. Right up until the mid-1960's, there were as many F1 races outside the championship as there were in it but nobody seems to count in those results.

Only the F1 Register seem to try to record *all* F1 results.

Allen

[Peter Mallett]

Sorry, I was really thinking in terms of pre 1950 GP results. Certainly the results from the Race of Champions and other non championship F1 races wouldn't be considered as GP wins because they weren't.

[AUSTRIA]

Thank you all for your additional replies.

Marcus, I think we have to make differences between a lot of race-states.

A) F1 - WC - races

B) F1 - nonWC races 1950 - 1983

C) FA/1 - nonWC races 1947 - 1949

D) 'GP-like races, free formula' from 1945 - 1949 (or later?). If you want, you can split this group into international (got GP later) and national (as F.e. GP Salon, Forez, ..) ones. But think, there were also sportscar races called 'GP'!

E) sportscar-races. It's interesting to me, researching the earliest beginnings of sportscar-racing. There is no exact border! A lot of (french) cars was able to be entered in F1 AND sportscar-racing, especially the Talbot-Lago types 90 MD and T26 and 150C and the Delahaye 135S. They only changed some things as the mudguards and the lights or even didn't !!

And now make statistics! I seems beeing easier, you take only the WC-races, and most of authors do so.

E.T.

Grand prix racing in 1946, after the end of WW II the previous year, was not yet well organized, a hard time for everybody. Few cars were seen on the streets and gasoline was practically not available. Therefore events were held predominantly in cities where spectators could walk, use bicycles or public transportation to attend the races. These were loosely organized, using the 1939 grand prix formula mixed with voiturettes. The cars from the late Thirties were already somewhat aged. Germany, which lost the war, was barred from international racing till 1950, therefore German cars and drivers were not seen at grand prix racing events.

In this setting with all kinds of logistical problems, 20 Formula Libre races for grand prix cars were staged in 1946. Since no championship was in place, these events were more or less equal of importance (or weren't they? Therefore,) for my own statistics, I determined the more important races from the 20 events and found seven, which I consider the major races: Nice GP - Marseille GP – St. Cloud GP - Albi GP – GP des Nations - Turin GP - Milan GP. The works-supported Alfa Romeo team attended four of the seven events.

I found only three races that had a remote significance of a superior Grand Prix and elevated them to Grande Épreuve status: St. Cloud GP - GP des Nations - Turin GP. I had done so for the sole purpose of finding the "Best Driver" of the year, judging by the performance in these most important races. It was Raymond Sommer.

At the end of 1946 the CSI (Commission Sportive Internationale) of the newly instituted FIA (Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile) had introduced Formula A for Grand Prix cars, coming officially into force from 1948 on but applied already in 1947. In 1949, the FIA established their World Championship of drivers for the following year, keeping 'Formula A' as the formula for grand prix cars but renaming it now officially 'Formula 1' from 1950 on.

All of this above I had written in the past year at TNF. I think it is deplorable that some of our most acclaimed present writers have a problem with the terms: GP Formula, Libre Formula, Formula A and Formula 1, all phrases used between 1945 and 1949. I read modern history books from the best writers and have to read that F1 cars were racing in 1946, 1947 or 1948. Don't you believe it. It's utter nonsense. Brainfade! The top writers of that time were Laurence Pomeroy and Rodney Walkerley. They used the term Formula A and Formula B for F.1 and F.2 respectively in their 1949 review of "The Motor Year Book". They were the authority, not the present writers, who were only kids then.

[Ray Bell]

Indeed, many were unborn... the likes of Peter Windsor are younger than me, and I Date back to around the very time of the first of these races.