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Old 30 Jul 2003, 12:37 (Ref:675242)   #1
Clive Harper
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Clive Harper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
How do we get and keep new marshals?

I may be getting a little long in the tooth (no jokes CrazyStu!), but in the last couple of years I have noticed fewer and fewer novice marshals on post. I know this is something that other people have probably mentioned before and I know that the clubs are looking at this problem too.

However, more worrying is the number of 'seasoned' marshals, often Observers, Examining Observers or battle-hardened I/Os who are hanging up their Probans due to disillusionment and lack of morale. I for one have seriously reduced the number of days I am marshalling this year.

Has anyone got any ideas of something practical we could do to stop both ends meeting in the middle?
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 12:41 (Ref:675247)   #2
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Well I guess the first question is "what's putting you off" - at least that gives us a place to start.

You say you're reduced the number of days you are marshalling this year.

Why is that?
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 12:48 (Ref:675251)   #3
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Piglet should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridPiglet should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridPiglet should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I think the other half of your question EP is the one that is being discussed in another thread, "why do you marshal", if we can also work out why people marshal (and why some events and not others) then that helps to tailor any "advertising" to push the things that appeal to people. I think I remember the BMMC doing a survey on this area a little while ago? Anyone remember?
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 12:58 (Ref:675265)   #4
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Very true oh squiggly tailed one!

Having said that, I find that people usually have more defined ideas on why they don't marshal an event than why they do - dunno why that is, but it always seems to be the case!
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 13:19 (Ref:675295)   #5
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sss should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
for a start look at the grading system, it needs to be scrapped and started again. keep it simple this time.
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 13:31 (Ref:675310)   #6
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It just seems odd to me that you are really doing the circuits, clubs and drivers a favour by being out there, yet you have to pay for the privilege of doing it.
Maybe that is why the numbers are falling off, or am I just an old cynic
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 14:02 (Ref:675329)   #7
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Originally posted by falcemob
It just seems odd to me that you are really doing the circuits, clubs and drivers a favour by being out there, yet you have to pay for the privilege of doing it.
Maybe that is why the numbers are falling off, or am I just an old cynic

The trouble with getting paid is, the marshals out there who do it for nothing do it because they want to do it and enjoy it (i think), and do a professional job.
Start paying marshals, may invite some to just come along to get paid to watch motor racing who don't have a real interest in marshaling.
When the $#17 hits the fan would you want someone at the side of you who dosn't give a damn??
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 14:08 (Ref:675334)   #8
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falce, that's a debate that needs a thread all of its own - the pros and cons of what should and should not be paid for, for marshals!

IME numbers fall off for several reasons:
  1. Poor treatment of marshals by organisers/competitors/circuit - lack of civility;lack of lunchbreaks
  2. Poor treatment by marshals club/other marshals
  3. Bad marshalling experience - near miss of your own; seriously injured competitor/spectator/fellow marshal
  4. Poor circuit facilities - no shelter;badly kept marshals posts (banks etc.);nowhere for marshals to go for lunch;unsecured camping facilities/no camping facilities
  5. Bad communication - not enough regular contact from marshals club - left feeling "unloved" - and usually uninformed
  6. "Seasonal" drop off - holidays/students returning home for summer
  7. "Familial" drop off - just married/new baby/growing children
  8. Retirement - too old for this sh1t! (sometimes hits people even in their twenties!)

Think that covers the main ones that I usually hear from different people.

Item b is surprisingly common - and not just poor treatment from your Club. The most daunting thing in the world is to be a new marshal arriving at a circuit for the first time and being confronted with a group of people who, regardless of how well they do or do not get on individually, are a team - and one bonded together by shared experience.

It is up to each and every one of us to welcome in every new marshal, ensure they're looked after and are not left sitting alone for their lunch or standing like a spare muppet whilst on post. Don't wait for someone to ask you to "take care" of someone. Do it yourself!
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 14:31 (Ref:675349)   #9
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OK dudes, points taken, but I still don't see why you should have to pay a membership and have to pay for your own overalls etc. Surely the club should cover you for insurance.
Having read afew of the threads on here, it gives me a newer perspective of the job you do, and thanks for doing it.
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 14:48 (Ref:675364)   #10
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I think the key to getting new marshals has to be better advertising / aware of what's involved. I started marshalling via an advert in a race program, but I've never seen any articles or adverts in any of the mainstream motoring publications (although SG seems to be taking steps to remedy that one), and it's amazing how many people think marshalling is my "second job".
As to how to keep them, I think EP has covered that quite well. Certainly things like poor facilities and poor treatment by competitors and/or organisers are not going to help. I also think marshalling needs to be more family friendly. In my experience most marshals with families do tend to bring then along, but no-ones going to haul the wife, two kids and the caravan along to a meeting knowing there are no facilities to accomodate them.
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 15:27 (Ref:675394)   #11
paul.hickman
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paul.hickman should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Clive - it will not come as any great surprise to you that this topic has been debated extensively in the past on these pages! Indeed one of our number ran a very helpful survey as to what marshals really want. The recurrent theme was respect from those in 'authority', to be valued, to have reasonable breaks during the day, to have a safe and dry place to leave equipment etc. No surprises there then! And equally nothing that a reasonable 'employer' wouldn't provide.

All that said and despite everything others and I have been involved in during the last year or so, nothing has substantially changed. The question of marshals and marshalling has been debated ad nauseam at the ABRMC (Association of British Motor Racing Clubs - a committee of the MSA). Result? Nothing...

Am I becoming disillusioned? In a word (and this is after a couple of decades of marshalling) - Yes.

What have I done about it? Well, as said above I have put my head above the parapet and tried to influence the debate at a reasonably high level (without tangible success). As a volunteer I am frankly beholden to no-one in motor sport and so I now choose very carefully the meetings at which I wish to marshal - and enjoy them hugely.

Finally, less you feel I am being negative, let me once again heap praise on those clubs and individuals that do actively value us - the VSCC springs readily to mind – as does Norbert Haug and Mercedes (who generously entertained the marshals at Donington last weekend. – many of whom will no doubt be proudly sporting their Mercedes jackets for some time to come).
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 15:42 (Ref:675417)   #12
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you do what merc did on sat night and throw a marshals party...bo!!ocks....i missed it
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 15:47 (Ref:675424)   #13
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Pike should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
EP - I think you have just about summed it up nicely and Paul - if Norbert Haug values marshals so much why was there nothing forthcoming from Merc at the GP??

I am the Secretary of the Prescott Marshals Club and we have run a full page ad in the programme at every meeting for marshals - kindly donated by the Bugatti Owners Club who print the programmes, I think we have "recruited" at least one marshal per meeting from it.
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 16:49 (Ref:675468)   #14
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Logrence should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
You need to reduce the bureaucracy - I've been to a training day, but I haven't joined a club and have thankfully been able to sidestep all that rubbish - people are so desperate for the extra marshals...

I've been lucky enough to have "trained" on the job with a top bunch of marshals - and I haven't had any problems with people yet.

Personally I do think it's disgusting that people have to pay for their own equipment - I've met people who bring their own flags because they can't trust what's going to be there at the circuit!

And would it ever be too much to ask for a club to give you lunch and a drink or two? Bemsee did it once and I had some vouchers at the 2CV 24 hours, but not enough to keep you going for very long at all.
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 17:26 (Ref:675517)   #15
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beefy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I have another perspective. I live in Cornwall and so it's a long journey for me to cover race meetings. Because of work, I can only marshal on a Saturday. What put me off was the fact that the race organisers only tended to put qualifying sessions on the Saturdays. I know the job of a marshal doesn't actually change, but I think we'd all agree that we are there for the racing. I spoke to one of BARCs senior officials about this and they were very dismissive, saying that they were concerned with the racers. Is there anything we can do about this?
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 17:28 (Ref:675521)   #16
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Muppet should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Look at the facilities for marshals at Knockhill and copy that around the country. They have a permanent Marshal's Building next to Race Control (not stuck out in the middle of nowhere) with kitchen, tea, coffee, food and plenty of room. The marshal's will respect it and look after it.
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 17:55 (Ref:675546)   #17
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Stuart Hill should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridStuart Hill should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally posted by Muppet
Look at the facilities for marshals at Knockhill and copy that around the country. They have a permanent Marshal's Building next to Race Control (not stuck out in the middle of nowhere) with kitchen, tea, coffee, food and plenty of room. The marshal's will respect it and look after it.
I've never been to Knockhill but we have at Prescott what sounds very similar and yet better. IMHO.

Away from the speccie's camping (no offense speccies), close enough to walk to but not disturb the drivers, is what's known as The Marshal's Pound. This is a fenced off area containing the Signing-On Hut and the Amenities Hut. During a meeting these facilities are available to ALL marshals but "Out-of-Hours" these are open to all members of the Prescott Hillclimb Marshals Club. (£3:50 p/a membership).

So what are these amenities???

Well, to start with any members are allowed to sleep in the huts free of charge. (Mattresses are provided)
The huts have:
Gas,
Electric,
Running Water,
Water Heater, (tea urn)
TV,
Microwave,
Fridge,
Freezers,
Stereo.
Gas BBQ.

The Hill also now has a shower.

So what does this mean...??????/

Well any marshal, member or not to start with, can turn-up on a Friday night and find a bunch of drunken marshals, normally with a BBQ going, only too ready to welcome newcomers. We've even been known to attract drivers and crews, some of which even bring prezzies!!

So what is the net result of all this effort.......?

Prescott Hillclimb has NEVER come close to not running due to lack of marshals. There have been some days, normally Sats, where the numbers are a little less than wished for, but never has any meeting been in danger.

I think it shows that if you treat your marshals well, they will respond.

by the way, the record number of Hill Marshals for one day at Prescott is 75 !!! Somehow they had to fit on 9 posts!!!
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 18:16 (Ref:675561)   #18
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Gizmo should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Stu, that`s very well put...well done and thank you. I think you will agree however that in addition to the facilities, marshals enjoy coming to Prescott because of the welcome they receive from all other marshals...we do become one team whether on the bank or not day or night.
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 18:19 (Ref:675566)   #19
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Stuart Hill should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridStuart Hill should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Stu, that`s very well put...well done and thank you. I think you will agree however that in addition to the facilities, marshals enjoy coming to Prescott because of the welcome they receive from all other marshals...we do become one team whether on the bank or not day or night.
I thought I'd said that, obviously not!

I stand to be corrected but have yet to hear a negative comment from a newcomer about "those bl**dy marshals at Prescott".

Any newcomers to Prescott care to comment?
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 19:34 (Ref:675650)   #20
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Beardy359 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Prescott is very good, I only started going there this season and already feel very much part of team - so hard luck, you will be seeing more of me next season.

The wider point seems to be that the smaller the venue/organisation the better we get treated, at Wiscombe last weekend we got a free burger, marshals draw (thanks for the whiskey!) and a drink and sweeties in the afternoon. This probably did not cost the club that much, but someone had to organise it, I suspect that at the larger meetings it is simply forgotten.

I now tend to do most of my marshalling at smaller venues/clubbies. These meetings are all about enthusiasts not money and they seem to me to be more enjoyable because of it!
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 20:22 (Ref:675682)   #21
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I had my first days at Prescott this year and can confirm what Stu has said. The key is, happy marshals are even more welcoming than grumpy ones, and happy marshals are one's who feel the organisers are taking them into consideration, particularly when they provide facilities.

Re Mercedes at DTM/GP, I think the answer is the manufacturers are part of the organisation at DTM, but not at the GP.
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 20:26 (Ref:675686)   #22
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pixie should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
As SSS says, Still need to scrap the Grading system and start again, only this time pretend we're not in the 1930's
Take a look at the Bike Marshals system !
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 20:43 (Ref:675707)   #23
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Richard Sneader should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I will enter this debate later, but as it is lawnmower racing this weekend for the 12hr let me show you what each marshal is getting and I have arranged it all: 2 meal vouchers for the wagon, drinks through the event, a goody bag from the club and a goody bag from donated items I have got myself, a marshals raffle with 2 top prizes and a load of other stuff so everyone should at least win 2 items. A BBQ during the night provided by the BLMRA, gazeebos on the posts, and a couple of other things that I am not saying,
WHY AM I SAYING THIS ON HERE. WELL THIS MEETING IS A CHARITY EVENT, I WAS DONATED EVERYTHING BY PUTTING MYSELF OUT AND WRITING AND ASKING, SO I DID NOT DRAIN ANYONES BUDGET, THE BLMRA REALISES WHO WE ARE AND THE IMPORTANCE OF MARSHALS AND TREATMENT OF THEM AND THE MAIN POINT I GIVE A DAM ABOUT THE TEAM I AM CHIEFING FOR AND THERE WELFARE WHILE AT THE EVENT INCLUDING THE CAMPING ARRANGEMENTS.
So clubs have a read, If I and the BLMRA can do this for a meeting this club makes next to know profit on as it goes to charity, then those that make money and a profit who do nothing should take a long walk and think what you can do.
Remember you tarmac and grass needs marshalls.
RS
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 21:11 (Ref:675736)   #24
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Nadine J Lewis should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I think you are right about other clubs sitting up and taking notice.

Just one thing for my understanding - isn't the BMMC a registered charity? That means it shouldn't make any profit. So where does all the money go? Or I am just being naive here.

I think we've all realised that BRDC are the worst offenders for treating people like garbage (see BRDC bawls up thread for this one!), but I'll still go to watch the Mini races!!

I go marshalling as I enjoy the racing - sometimes you get bad weekends and some clubs are worse offenders than others. (Though credit to BRSCC who put on a stormer at OP last weekend!!)

I think some of the committee members on some of the clubs have been there too long - and I'm sure they get a few perks - and have forgotten what it is like to be on the bank every weekend. I'm sure someone can put me right on this!
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Old 30 Jul 2003, 21:17 (Ref:675740)   #25
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paul.hickman should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Thanks Woolley - I guess that you're right about Mercedes cf. with Mclaren Mercedes. One of my 'choices' was not to do the GP this year - comes hard having done them since '76 - but one has to stand by ones principles. As for Prescott - shall be there this weekend (not hill marshalling but car park attending!). Would love to do a modern hill climb there - Goodwood and the young Scottish genius up the hill was awesome...
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